Podcast Segment for Parents – Episode 252

Awesome stuff. Here is Hutch with Ray Petkau, talking about the agency side of our journey on InGoal Radio Podcast.

Okay. I'm here for a very quick conversation today with, Ray Petkau of Alpha Hockey. Full disclosure, Ray has been a good personal friend for many years and does represent my son, Matthew, who you've heard about on the podcast before. But this is a more generic question. We're not recruiting for Alpha Hockey.

In fact, I think, Ray, you probably work with a a pretty select clientele, but the generic question here for the day is, when does my son or daughter need an agent or adviser?

Yes. I get that question all the time, as you can imagine. I get it via phone call, in person, email, text, through friends. I I hear it all the time. And so it's a it's a different answer for almost everyone, of course, because

Oh, great. It's not easy.

It's not easy. No. Yeah. Some sometimes a player needs an agent as young as and it it almost pains me to say this, but almost, at at 14, it that's that's possible where players need an agent at that point for the the really higher end players.

But Is that because you're heading into the CHL draft ages?

Yes. That's right. Yes. Now my opinion is, not, and this may upset some people in in our industry because there are there are a lot of agencies whose their revenue is based on on a a billing where they charge young players a a set fee, and it's, sometimes that's where the lines get blurred a little bit as to who needs an agent and who doesn't. It's almost for there are some agencies and maybe not the more reputable ones where they will take anyone who's willing to pay a fee.

Mhmmm

so I do advise against that for the most part. There are some good ones who are doing that. But I think it's very important to start by saying, look for an NHL PA certified agency. If the end goal is to play professional hockey and most kids in this country and others, of course, your listeners and viewers are everywhere. If the end goal is to play in the NHL, you need an NHL PA certified agent.

That is the first question or the first thing I I would check, and you can check the NHL certified agent list on the NHL PA website, nhlpa.com.

K.

Extremely important. Seeing too many players get bad advice from people who seem to have credentials, but they actually don't. They're not certified. And and in fact, there are some in the business right now operating. It it appears as though they may be certified based on what they say, but they aren't.

So and I'm sorry to kinda go off into that rabbit hole, but it's an important thing to discuss when discussing agents. And, of course, it's the usually the first contacts for for players and families with with agents, and and they don't know these things. So but with the age with with young players at, that who are looking at the Bantam draft, they without a doubt, almost all of them need advice. They need some guidance. And and and I I I should clarify, there are some of the agencies who are charging a fee, and it's legit, and it's fine.

It's they're not all out to to take advantage. In fact, few are out to take advantage of of families, but there are those, and and so it's important to look out for that. But as far as hiring an agent, unless you unless the player is likely to be a a higher pick who is going to be asked to sign fairly quickly after the draft Mhmm. The really, all they need is advice, and you can get advice from a lot of great people in the game. Often, I recommend talking to a trusted coach, maybe a a family who's been through it, maybe mom or dad of of a a player who knows kind of the ins and outs based on their experience.

They they could give advice. There's a lot of ways. There's a lot of information online, but it that's not all accurate, unfortunately. So, talking to a trusted, trusted current coach, former coach, maybe just, if a family is in the game and and there there are some people who they know, who are scouts, And it's maybe hard to to find, unbiased people in in certain situations that can happen. But I would say, like, the average player who even if they're going to be drafted in the Western League or OHL queue or wherever it might be, you know, a mid round pick, they don't really need an agent for the most part.

And and yet if they if they get an agent, at least wait until you are at that point where you're going to be drafted and or it's very likely you will be drafted because at that point, a team may present you with a contract. And and once you are asked to sign a contract in the in in major junior, especially, you really should have someone look over that and and advise you of of the the rights that you have and don't have if you sign that. Currently, there are there are, of course, two major paths in in hockey, junior hockey for mostly Canadian players, which is the the CHL and junior a or or the BCHL level now, which is technically not junior a. It's it's it's kind of its own its own new thing.

Its own beast. Yeah.

Right. And, and so the NCAA path, of course, follows that, for a lot of those players. And, and that looks like it may change, and that's an entirely different topic, but it's a big one.

We'll come back to you.

Yeah. Sure. So there are a lot of those types of things where families, especially if they haven't been around the game for a long time, it it's okay at that point to start having those conversations. I have a lot of a lot of conversations with players and families that are what I just call no strings attached. It may be a situation where I'm not even really interested in representing this player simply because for us, we're a small group and and we don't recruit a lot of players.

Mhmm. I really want to make sure that the players we recruit will require the services of an NHL agent in the future. Others who are set up maybe where their focus is more helping players with NCAA scholarships and things like that, and that's where the fees come in, and those are okay, where that's the goal. They will-

Not just okay. Am I not right that they're required if you're NCAA?

Exactly. That that's required at this point, and that's changed over the years. We went from not being able to invoice players to it becoming mandatory if if the goal is to play NCAA hockey or if they are currently in NCAA hockey. So and and I'm sure all of that sounds it ends up sounding fairly confusing for some listeners who are not familiar with this. And they're like, well, you have all this these things that you're saying, but why shouldn't we hire an agent?

It's it's just that advice is necessary for for pretty much everyone, especially where there there's just not a lot of knowledge in the family about it. But to lock in with an agent at a very young age, I always prefer that it's, if for the players that we sign and and full disclosure, we have one 15 year old client right now, and and then we we have very few players in each, draft year. Usually, it's one or two. Mhmm. And but 15 being our youngest, and and and he's likely going to be a first round draft pick in in the Western League draft here and and could be a top 10, but we're not sure yet, of course.

And those are the types of players where there that is that there's a big benefit to having, an agent at that point. The I get I always get back to, you know, when do you how do you decide if if you need that advice? If you just can't get advice through family, friends, or a former coach, and and you should be able to get advice from from a coach, that that shouldn't be that difficult. Right? There's a and there's so many great people in this game.

And at that point, maybe it's okay to make contact. I mean, it's anytime it's okay to make contact with an agent, but I I would just be careful not to jump, at the first agent that someone speaks with. I I usually request anyone that we're interested in in, signing as a client. I prefer they have conversations with other agents as well just so they understand, the different, first of all, personalities, but also different maybe specialties or areas, of of extra interest for one agency compared to another one. And, and to have a good fit is obviously very important because this is someone who will end up, working very closely with, at times, personal matters as well in a player's life.

For sure.

So so it's it's just something that I see a lot of people rush into. Young players have an agent approach them or the family, and and, it's exciting. They they look around and, you know, they all know other players who have agents at a young age. And, you know, sometimes there's there's a few things involved. Maybe there's a camp or some players get sticks from their agents and and things like that.

They get excited. There's there's that

Fear of missing out.

Yeah. Right. Yes. And

But there's a related question, Ray, if if I may. I think there's a lot of fear and some of it put on to people just by the rumor mill, some probably by some less experienced agents trying to recruit clients. But there's that fear, if I don't have an agent, I won't get drafted. Or if I have an agent, I might get drafted higher. Right.

Even to the point of I won't get on a good team.

Yep. Right.

You know, maybe even at the midget level, people are worried if they don't have representation. You can't really affect much of that as an agent, can you?

But what I find is that as as a whole, agents and and I have been guilty of this myself in in the past, and I try to be very honest with with myself as well as others, of course, what what we can affect, what what type of you know, where where is our value? And and a lot of times in our industry, we overhype what we can do in a draft. To be very honest, there's some maybe draft manipulation, if you want to call it that. There's some of that, but an agent isn't going to be the difference between a player going in the first round and the eighth round. Their three team the junior level has a paid scouting staff and they're not all paid.

Some of them are volunteer and and others are are paid, but, they they are putting literally hundreds of hours into scouting and watching hockey. There are, there are services that are not affiliated with with teams in the in junior hockey, who provide scouting services. And they are usually paid scouts as well. These are often at least smart hockey people who are watching. They are paid to watch.

It is their job to know who's out there. Players don't really get missed anymore. It's exciting to see players develop late, but they unless a player was was playing in some league obscure league that is maybe a much lower level, it's pretty hard to miss a player these days with the amount of scouts who are out there watching almost at every level at this point.

And you probably can't just phone up an OHL general manager and say, I know little Jimmy's playing in an obscure league that nobody's ever seen. You should draft him. I don't think that guy's gonna draft him.

He's not gonna draft him. He might

Might get invited to a camp or something?

Might get invited to a camp. He might send a scout out. In all likelihood, they would just have somebody log on to the Internet.

Yes. And watch it.

And and they'd watch a video. Well, they'd watch film on this player. At and usually, that's where it would stop because, again, players haven't been missed for the most part. And and the draft manipulation, yes, there are times when you you call a team or two or or you you have a list of teams that are your preferred destination. You have the opposite where you this player doesn't wanna go for whatever reason.

It's not something I love doing. I I I hate calling a GM and saying, look. This player that I know you've been watching and are interested in doesn't if you draft him, he's not going to come. He won't sign. And I've I've been told off in in in a phone call like that where the GM said, you know, basically, it's a it's an f u.

If we wanna pay it, we will. And and if he doesn't wanna sign, he doesn't have to, but, you know, where else is he gonna go? That isn't very common, but I've I've called teams in the past and said, you know, for whatever reason, and you have to do it as respectfully as possible. But you're telling a GM something they don't wanna hear. Mhmm.

And and you're saying this player won't come if you if you draft him. And and the way I've approached it is I I really just wanna save you the headache of drafting a player who who won't come. And, usually, it's because they their choice is to play NCAA hockey, and they're going to go that route. But occasionally, and I've been honest with GMs, occasionally, it's just the the family's decided, no. Our our son's not going to go there.

And when he's 18, maybe. Mhmm. But till he's at that age, he just we won't allow him to play that far away from home is often the the case where it's far. And and and a family has every right to do that. And sometimes you have to make those difficult calls.

But that's where some draft manipulation can happen. But as far as effective

not a case of you need to have an agent if you wanna get drafted?

No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And and to put a camp after the draft and and outside of some of the top picks that a team would would use a first or second round pick, outside of that, I usually recommend, not signing until you have a roster spot on that team because you just never know what will happen. So that that is it that's not a a hard a hard set rule that I have, but it's a little bit of a guideline.

Why would you sign? And I I know what a what a team says why they would want a player to sign early. But for me, I like to have my options open as long as possible with with something like where am I going to play. So I like to I like to have players sign only once they have a roster spot offered, not a not a a tryout, not training camp or anything like that. It's gotta be more than than that.

It has to be a roster spot. And and, again, there are there are changes to that rule.

For sure. Well, that's that's fantastic, Ray. Thank you. I think we've probably raised more questions. Probably.

So we may need to revisit this at another time. Everybody knows they can hit us up, parents@InGoalMag.com, and you'll get, what advice we can offer as well and as many questions answered from experts like Ray as we can as well. Ray, thanks so much for taking a few minutes.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Love Razor. Bump into him every now and then at different tournaments, including prospect tournaments. I think I'm the only one that's allowed that he permits to call him Razor. And I I don't even do it to his face. I just, like, say, hey.

In my head, I'm like, oh, there's Razor. I'll go talk to him. Razor. Right back home.

Might have to give it a try.

Steinbach, Manitoba. Steinbach, Manitoba.

It's definitely the only Razor from Steinbach, if indeed that is a nickname that really exists, but we're gonna have to try out the next time we see him, see how we react. Daren just making it up as he goes here.

Just a footnote on on your conversation with Ray, Hutch.

Sure. It was a it was a great conversation. We do bring up that, there's often people out there you can turn to for advice in this area and you should coaches, managers, and so on. And if you would like, you can get in touch with us, parents@ingoalmag.com. Whether you've got a question about this area or another question that we might bring up on the on a future parent segment presented by the Stop It You app, let us know.

We'd love to hear from you.

And you should make some time the first time that you go on the app, on the Stop It Goal Tending U app, because you will end up down a rabbit hole before you know it. And all of a sudden, it's it's like your kids on TikTok. Four hours go by. Like, what? I just did that, and I did 42 brief lessons, and it it's awesome stuff by by great goaltenders.

Some you know, and some you you don't know, but it's a it's a cool way to get exposed to our deeper world of goaltending. Awesome talk. Every now and then, I think Woody's Woody's gonna chime in there, and and 99% of the time, I'm right. He does. He does.

And and that there's one time every year where he doesn't. And I'm just I'm like, what what just happened there? Is is is he muted? There's a little behind the scenes as we go.