InGoal Radio Episode 335 Sports Science Solutions

Intro

The announcement has been made. The rosters, at least half of them have been revealed, and we know the starting goaltenders or the three goaltenders named to a few different Olympic rosters for Milan Cortina. This is InGoal Radio Podcast presented by The Hockey Shop Source for Sports Langley, thehockeyshop.com. Daren Millard along with Kevin Woodley. David Hutchison is on assignment somewhere around Western Canada.

Can't reveal the exact location, but I I'm gonna nail it down to someplace wintry and cold. That's that's as far as I'll go on it.

So in other words, he's going East of Vancouver.

Yeah. Exactly. Somewhere wintry and cold between the Rocky Mountains and Thunder Bay. That that's as close as I'm gonna lock it in because we we protect his privacy. We're we're good that way.

This is a a fun time of the year. We got some cool announcements. One being the review of the Alpha Surge line from Warrior Hockey and the contract extension of Devin Cooley. We'll get to both those. But the Olympic rosters have been revealed.

And in particular, we're wondering what what Finland would do, what Sweden would do, team Canada, which direction they would go in. USA was a foregone conclusion. But any surprises that that you saw pop up?

Only that my phone didn't ring, buddy.

That would have been a surprise.

That would have been a surprise, I guess. Little surprised to hear that neither did Mackenzie Blackwoods. Like, not even, you know, you're next on the list if someone gets hurt given the number of injuries we've seen in goal. He's a guy that when I look at the numbers this year, I might have tried to find a way onto the roster for Canada. And yet, I've said that.

And since I've said that, he's out of the lineup again with, another injury. So, maybe that's part of the thinking there. Guys that, you know, Darcy Kuemper stays healthy with the Los Angeles Kings. And also over the past two years has been exceptional for the a little bit of a dip right now.

One one of Stanley Cup too. Right?

One of Stanley Cup. I I look back at that Stanley Cup year and and the statistics Everybody

says that.

Goaltenders. Man, there there aren't many cups handed out with goalie stats like that. That's the sad that's just the truth. That I think from the eye injury on that year, he wasn't the same guy. He has been that guy in LA.

He was worthy. We talked about how everybody thinks the Kings are an easy environment for goaltenders. They took a step back defensively last year, and he was full value for that. Combination of that and and and this year, I get it. Binnington, obviously, we've seen the struggles, but we said it last week.

Jordan Binnington with a chip on his shoulder. What's he done since since the announcement? We start with the shout out right away. Yep. I mean, he's not even he's not even the starter right

now in

his own team.

After the announcement.

Okay. Right. You're right. He got shelled by the Colorado Avalanche in the first game. Game two shutout.

His numbers actually over the past month are starting to tick up relative to a pretty bad defensive environment, so that's positive. And then Logan Thompson was a no brainer to me, frankly. If they had done anything they if they were to do anything but win gold and he wasn't on the team, we'd have a goaltending symposium to investigate it. Like, he's been that good for the last couple of years for the Washington Capitals, and he's full value. So no surprises there.

I well, maybe the Blackwood thing, but no shocks there.

Do you wanna go down the path of who each federation or the big four number one goaltenders are?

Sure. It's Binnington for Canada. No? Like like, you're not

Logan Thompson. I think Logan Thompson will be there at number one.

As much as Binnington has fallen off a cliff this year statistically, if he climbs back out of it in the next couple of months at all, aren't you bringing him because of what he did at the four nations, and don't you need to give him that first shot at retaining that? Like, we don't I'm not saying that's how I go necessarily.

He'd have to put together a pretty good stretch here in the final three weeks of January.

But if you were judging him based on what he's done this season, you wouldn't have him on the team. So if you've got him on the team, it's because you think he can be your starter. No?

I think the lack of options is probably why he's he's there.

Okay. Well, I mean, like I said, like, I can find a pretty good option in Mackenzie Blackwood, Scott Wedgewood. Like, there's some there's some other guys. We talked about Jake Allen that have had good statistical seasons. At the end of the day, Binnington and Kuemper have

a pedigree. Right? So We disagree there. What team USA? Is it Connor Hellebuyck?

Yeah. It's Connor Hellebuyck. I think it would be his job to lose. I think people you know, I I know that things have not gone well in Winnipeg, obviously, this year. Their defensive play, which was so good last year, has completely evaporated.

And yet, Hellebuyck, since coming back from the knee injury, is still above expected. He went into that knee surgery as one of the best goalies in the NHL relative to environment. Going into the the surgery, he was actually better statistically than he was last year when he won the Hart in the business. So I think it's his job to lose. He'll get first dibs.

I gotta say, though, because because this is worth noting. After a couple years where and we talked a lot about a lot of Jake Oettinger's numbers being a product of the environment defensively, he is outplaying the environment in Dallas by a significant margin this year. Like, he is performing at a higher level than he has in the past couple of years. And as much as it's gotten attention statistically, guys like Steve Valiquette have pointed out, like, hey. Like, relative to environment for three years, he's basically being league average.

Like, the reputation didn't necessarily match the results. The results have caught up to the reputation. Like, Jake Oettinger looks great. He's playing great. The numbers back it up.

If anybody's gonna push right now as good as Jeremy Swayman can be too, I think Oettinger's setting himself up to at least be a part of that conversation in the American net.

Sweden is forced to pass over a Vezina Trophy winner in Linus Ullmark. Who is their starter at the Olympic Winter Games?

Quietly, and nobody's really noticed it yet. But for the last couple of weeks, Jacob Markstrom's numbers have ticked up significantly, but I still think it's gonna be Jonas Gustavsson. You know, just the amount of experience you

NHL tandem there, like a a team tandem.

Gus and Wallstedt. Yeah. And and full value to Wallstedt whose numbers remain off the charts good in in a in a somewhat favorable environment in Minnesota. I just think I think Gustafson's got a larger track record and more experience. And so that's that and over the past month or so, those numbers have started to level off between him and Wallstedt.

I just that's my hunch. I don't know, but my guess would be Gustafsson gets the first dibs.

And Finland?

Saros has also had an exceptional sort of bounce back here as Nashville has gotten better and climbed back into the race. A large part of it has been Juuse Saros. So I would suspect that he gets first shot. Although Alex Lyon, who we're gonna talk about in our ProReads presented by Vizual Edge a little later on in the show as this week's guest in that segment. As much as he started the run with Buffalo, when UPL got into the net, he's been a big part of it, and his game is ticked up until, you know, the when they were going for the eleventh straight win, there are a couple that went through them, and they couldn't extend it to 11.

But up to that point, he'd been really good, and his game had been training in the right spot. I still think it's Saros. And listen. Kevin Lankinen for the past three, four, maybe even five starts has once again started to look like the guy that Canucks had at the start of last season. He hasn't.

We talked about this last week. He is 17 for 17 in shootouts, has not given up a goal, and his game overall is just really trending in a nice direction.

So you still wanted to go to a shootout in Milan and put him in?

I do. Maybe I do. Maybe that's just the goalie geek in me. I did ask him that question. I was asked to ask him that question actually, and obviously too soon to think about that.

I don't even know if that's something any team would consider. But when you look at his numbers, man, like, eight eighty nine leads the NHL all time in shootout save percentage and 17 straight this year. I'm not sure anybody would put a goalie in cold after that much hockey's been played and they haven't been a part of it. But if you're ever gonna make a case, I think Kevin Lankinen, it might be it.

You know, Ray Shiroe, way back when his dad, Fred, had an idea of a bullpen like situation for goaltenders in the hallway at rings, where goaltenders could warm up and get ready for games. That was that was Fred, coach of the Philadelphia Flyers and New York Rangers, had that idea. I think we need it.

All we need is NHL Sense Arena. I mean, I'll I'll lend I'll lend I'll lend Lance my headset while he's while he's over in Italy because, you know, we've seen guys use it in the intermissions and as part of their warm up. So you just just set it to shootout mode. You can handle it, and you'd be fine.

Okay. Germany hasn't, at the time of this recording, released their roster.

But Philipp Grubauer has

He is on a heater, isn't he?

Yeah. And and listen. Like, not to pat our backs too hard, but we called this. Right? And full credit to Valiquette's numbers over at Clearsite Analytics.

I mentioned him in the Oettinger discussion. Like, the numbers there pointed to this coming. As much as last year was a disappointment for Philipp Grubauer, he ends up clearing waivers and going to the American Hockey League. Once he got back, he was a different goalie. His numbers were uptick huge.

Seattle brought in Colin Zulianello brought him up from Coachella Valley where he'd worked with Gruber. They just seemed to have a really great working relationship, and he has basically picked up where he left off. I honest since the injury to Matt Murray and they've been in a more traditional two goalie setup, he's been sensational. Like, top 10 numbers in the entire NHL.

Do you think the two goalie thing has something to do with it?

I listen. I'm like, much like the shootout thing, and I know everybody says three goalies doesn't work. Three goalies doesn't work. And I'm usually an advocate for, you know, like, you can make it work and you can use it. You can use it to get rest.

Like, Daccord was getting so much rest earlier. He wasn't having to dress when he wasn't starting. There were a lot of positives there. The way they were managing them in practice, like, tons of positives. But it might have been a little bit of overthinking because they've I don't know if it's a coincidence that they've gotten the best of those hours since it ended.

Unless one

guy practices by himself every day. The goalies out there want their own net. And the third goalie ends up whoever's not in the net ends up getting in the way. The players don't like it. The goalies don't like it.

The goalie coach doesn't like it. The coaches don't like it. It it doesn't work. The third guy, whoever that third guy is that particular day has to practice by himself.

So in other words, we need to practice goalies so that all the benefits of having an extra goalie, which are real Yes. Can be can be done without the Totally. Without the all those

issues goalie doesn't have to have to practice if if you don't need them.

Can wait in the bullpen with his NHL Sense Arena on until somebody gets off the ice.

Or his Fred Sheerl. Yeah. Bullpen.

Can you

make imagine building that thing behind? Like, space is so limited already what that thing would look like.

Hey. We don't even have a media room on the rink on the ice level at Rogers Arena. I don't think they're gonna be able to squeeze in a bullpen for the for the practice goalies.

Devin Cooley gets a contract extension with the Calgary Flames. That's a that's a great story.

And Mackenzie Skapski might get a watch, a Rolex to boot. I'm not sure if he watch? Well, because our friend Devin Cooley basically thanked Mackenzie for saving his career in his words. The transformation that he made in the American Hockey League last year, I guess somewhere along the way, he said if I make it back up and I make it in the NHL, you're getting a Rolex. So he signed a two year contract extension to stay in the NHL. I think that Skapski, who I will see later this week, let me just say I'm gonna be paying close attention to what's on his wrist, see if they pulled that off yet. It's a great story by Eric Francis sort of outlining that relationship, and that was a big part of it.

Some jokes back and forth about just how nice a Rolex it might be. Listen. This is a great story. One of my favorites in terms of, like, Cooley's outspoken and we all know the quote and the T shirts and the the pet rabbit, but this is a guy who never gave up in terms of being willing to try new things and look at his game in different ways. Like, the ultimate late bloomer, a different message, a different voice comes along starting in San Jose with Thomas Speer, continuing with Mackenzie Skapski in Calgary, and now he's a full time national hockey leaguer.

I think that's just great stuff.

Does Rolex make a, like, a fitness tracker watch, or does it have to be the one with the with the hands?

I'm pretty sure that Rolex doesn't doesn't lower it. Like the old style and He he, you know, buy buy a ring or something like that because I I I don't think the Rolex lowers itself to the status of fitness tracking.

Well, that's why I don't wear a Rolex.

Yeah. Me too. That's why. That's why for me too. Good call, Daren.

Oh, we'll get into the

Apple watches unite.

Gear

Yeah. We'll get into the, Alpha Surge from Warrior in just a little bit. But first, let's check out, the Gear Segment over at the Hockey Shop. Today, we're talking about the TPS Response Rubber Stick, but, what's happening with Cam and Company?

Well, first of all, it's not a rubber stick. Just so I mean, we I guess we could've left them in suspense, and they thought but there is a rubber component.

But it sounds cool, doesn't it?

It does it does sound cool. Might be a little too whippy. Be like that Tristan Jarry stick I got once. It was so whippy, couldn't even shoot it. Yeah. You know what?

They're busy over there. Boxing day they're through the boxing week sale. Again, to our American friends, that's our equivalent up here of of Black Friday. They had savings up to 70% off. There are some carryover items.

The massive savings, most of that stuff's gone. But there are still some great deals to be had, some carryover items. Much like the announcement of the Alpha Surge, there is a whole bunch of new product coming in in the 2026, and that means they have to create a bunch of space, and that means great savings on everything from sticks to accessories to pads to gloves, lockers, helmets, you name it, The Hockey Shop Source for Sports. In addition to having the latest, including Vaughn I online coming out, we already did Brian's iconic two, the Warrior Alpha Surge. All the new stuff is coming out soon, but they've also got savings and all the old stuff.

Make sure you check it out online at thehockeyshop.com. And if you're lucky enough to be around in person and get the Go Bug Cam, The Hockey Shop Source for Sports in Langley.

Check it out. It's the Gear Segment dealing with the TPS Response Rubber with Cam and Woody.

Woah. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. Like, we're throwing it back a little old school with the TPS branding on this new stick.

I demand a response from you. It TPS. Rubber response. Woah. You will

get a response from me, Cameron, but it will not include rubber other than than what is on this stick from TPS. So what do we got going here? Like, why why why in 2025 am I holding a TPS stick at The Hockey Shop Source for Sports? By the way, welcome back Yes. To The Hockey Shop Source for Sports.

So is Cam. I'm Kevin. This is the Gear Segment, and this is the TPS Rubber Response.

We've had a bit of a revival of the TPS name.

Yes. A conglomerate. A Response revival?

A Rubber Response revival. Wow. There you go. Nice little bass. Tongue twister.

So that Lewisville TPS response name. Sorry. What? Lewisville.

Louisville. Thank you. Lewisville. Just go before I get angry.

So we've got the response of that old school naming here. So Conglomerative Companies have now revived that TPS name. So we see their composite sticks. We've seen a composite player stick, which has no importance to us because we're more focused

on We don't care about players.

No. 18 k carbon. K. Rubberized grip grip exactly where you would hold the stick. So that goes up to

It's nice tacky feel.

I like it. Exactly. Stiff overall shaft, low kick point to the stick, decent overall flex, feels very, very rigid. Separation stick.

Yeah.

Yeah. Separation from, you know, other sticks I would say on the market. I wouldn't say it's like as flexible. The way that carbon's laid is gonna add a lot of rigidity to the stick. In theory, strength.

I'm not gonna say the word durability because it's always a hard Top one. It's a tough word when it comes to Usually, when it's different,

you usually get a little more mileage out of it.

That's exactly it. Overall, nice balanced overall feel too as well. And then I think we're Wait. Like like the blade shape? What's So curvature.

Yeah. We're gonna be the same kind of like p 31, you know, p four Crawford style curve, you know, Warrior Twist.

That's not

All falling along the same lanes.

Okay. Alright. Paddle links standard industry standard? Correct. Goodness?

Yes. Yes. So they are lining up with, like, what you would notice in, like, a Bauer, you know, CCM, that kind of thing. Sizing all the way down into junior.

Junior. Here's what I noticed about the junior that I really liked is we got this 21 inch.

[crosstalk] And is this junior or youth? Always mixed. Junior.

Okay. So t p 31, still the same. Oh, you just cut. Sorry. That was actually an accident, not on purpose.

That's two minutes. You can do that.

Yeah. You feel shame. I will go to the box and feel shame, Cam, especially over the holidays here. Just look like the shaft is narrower. Like, so why It makes sense to me.

Sorry. Sorry. Paddle is what I meant. It's all sort of narrow. It's all sort of size down.

I like that. Yes. Because why would we, you know, just shorten the paddle but have this huge beefy thing for kids?

To be able to, again, throw around a little bit easier and whatnot, not necessarily, you know, pulling that stick behind them. I mean, it is an extremely lightweight stick so shouldn't necessarily be having that. But, again, it's less material to to kinda get in the way. So having a little bit narrower, again, a little

bit easier to control. TPS, it's back. Did I tell you that it almost never left? I think we should have a story time with Kevin. I'll keep this brief, which is not something I do often.

Buckle up. Years ago, a company bought a private equity firm, I believe, bought both Sherwood and TPS, and they had a decision to make. And they asked us which decision they should make. By us, I mean InGoal. Do we go with Marty Brodeur and Sherwood, or do we go

with this young Lundqvist kid and TPS? What was your response? We said TPS and Lundqvist. They win Sherwood. The rest is history.

Although It's it's back, baby. It's back.

I need Henrik Lundqvist to come out, although he's such a Bauer guy now. It's fair. Yeah. Anyways, TPS is back. If you got questions about where this stick fits in the lineup because let me tell you, they have got a lineup here at the Hockey Shop Source for Sports.

One, two, three, like four stick racks, all goalie goodness, both sides around the corner, everything you can imagine. Where does this fit? What does it cost? All those prices. Hit Cam and his crew up

at (604) 589-8299 or 1-800-567-7790 or check us out at thehockeyshop.com. TPS, rubber response. It's back, baby. And with that, we're out.

Alright. You you know I'm on there all the time. Like, because I I get the emails, so I immediately go check it out over at The Hockey Shop. And I this is a good reminder for for those of us that live in The States because I tried to order something, but there's certain brands that that they can't ship across the border. And I got all the way through and then got the notice that they they can't ship the the CCM across.

So You know, need reminder for everybody.

That's a good reminder for everyone, Daren. Well done. But you do know that for yourself, you you you might have somebody who lives close to the hockey shop and also lives close to the border that might be able to help you with that and might be on this podcast with you right now. So you just just hit me up on that, you know. I can probably

who that is.

Yeah. Yeah. So we had a fun little discussion there. Like, it was it's funny. It brought back some memories.

Like, I don't think a lot of people realize that, like, TPS as a brand kinda disappeared for a while now. It's come back with this stick law offering. But there was a time when a private equity firm bought both Sherwood and TPS, and amongst their discussions was one with us about which line should carry forward. It was Marty Brodeur Sherwood or Henrik Lundqvist TPS. Our opinion was Lundqvist as much as we admire Burdur.

We we thought go with the modern trend. They chose Sherwood. I think that was a couple owners ago. And now both brands sorta making comebacks mostly on the stick side. Sherwood, obviously, on the player side with Connor Bedard as a as a as a big name using the twist.

I use Sherwood sticks.

There there you go. But yeah. But yours are old and wooden like the old

'78. Wrecker.

Oh, the wrecker. That's right. Yeah. Okay. So you got the new Sherwood stick.

But I do have a a Pete Peeters old Sherwood game use behind me.

Hanging behind you. Yeah. I know that thing probably weighs as much as my pads now. The I put it in the back

of my truck for weight in the winter.

Yeah. Little extra traction. Yeah. Little extra traction because you need it with all the snow you get in Vegas.

Totally.

The but, like, I it's funny to think. Like, would things have been different for the complete line? Like, get like, that was right when Henrik Lundqvist was becoming the guy in New York, and you gotta wonder if if TPS hadn't disappeared. Remember those pads that he came over with in 2005? Yeah.

Like, with you know? And if that had been an option the other interesting part that I know that people realize is that the designer at the time for TPS brought a pad to me to test here at South Surrey. I only got to wear it once, and the inside was hard like a plastic edge. And and I think it was a really straight pad, like, knee, MES straight pad.

But the I'm a big

fan of but the sliding was unreal in it. Like that. And it was at a time before Bauer had come up with their core tech, you know, before we'd seen a Warrior slide play. Like, if that company decides to keep the TPS brand, not only does is it Lundqvist being pushed instead of Brodeur and a more traditional old school Sherwood, but I think they might have been ahead of the curve on some of this fast sliding material that we see now. So just one of those little history lessons that, you know, what might have been, had a private equity company gone a different way and and listened to InGoal when that decision was made rather than somebody else who said, go with Brodeur and Sherwood.

Alright. So sounds like your most distinctive memory of somebody wearing the TPS would be Henrik Lundqvist.

He jumps up first, but I also what you know what else? Like, wasn't Rolly Melonson wearing TPS with Edmonton in that run to the cup final that ended with the injury in the cup finals? And and then who was the backup that came off the bench and actually was wearing those pads? Was it Ty

Ty Conklin.

Conklin. And he was actually wearing a set of Melonson pads because some point I remember I covered that Stanley Cup final for

you yesterday. Dwayne Roloson.

Yeah. Yeah. Dwayne isn't that what I said?

Yeah. Melonson.

Oh, I'm an idiot.

That's

alright. Pucks to the head. Dwayne Roloson wearing those pads and then Conklin coming off the bench, and he was wearing the same pads. And and I would cover that Stanley Cup final for USA Today, and I remember going in and asking him, like, just me? Are you wearing?

And he's like, no. No. Like, I actually tried his pads and really liked at some point during the playoffs. So he ends up coming into the game, and he's wearing an old pair of Rolly Melonson's pads. So Rolly Dwayne Rollison.

Rolly Melonson. Dwayne Roloson, clearly, Kevin's taking too many pucks to the head today.

Mikko Koskinen was also part of that run. They used three goaltenders in the Stanley Cup final that year. I was thinking TPS. I I think it was Louisville, though, was was Cujo wore wore that.

You're you might be right.

In in Edmonton, for sure. That was those days, but I don't I don't did did Louisville crossover?

I can't can't

everything kinda melds together.

Well, when I think when I think of TPS, I think of Louisville.

Yeah. That's what I think. Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So it must have crossed over. And clearly, I can't even get names right, so let's not be I shouldn't be the one giving history lessons today because large chunks of my brain no longer function.

Rolly the goalie. Just had him on.

Right? He was awesome. He was a great guest.

Yeah. He was a video just dialed in. He loved his video back when he played.

Ahead of the curve.

And he used to do he used to catch the puck. That's what I remember about rolling. Catch the puck and bat it out. Like, he would throw it up and bat it out backhand out of the zone. He was one of the few guys in the league that ever did that.

I'm not sure you get away with that now with in the in the puck possession era of of something like that.

Imagine if he could do it well enough to pull off on. Well empty net goal that way.

And he he also did the flip over backhand like Cujo.

Like Cujo. There we go. There's the tie in.

There nobody nobody flips over.

No. Not at all. No. We should bring that back. Oh, yeah.

Do you think that's a good that that'll be that's a difference maker for us? You you and me will bring that back in Canada. Canada's calling us next time.

The Alpha Surge, we get the review going.

Yeah. Make sure you check it out at ingoalmag.com. We unlock all our reviews, and this is one that it's more of an overview, but it's one we're excited to bring to you. Our our partnership being back on board with Warrior allowed us to go to Montreal and really sort of dig in behind the scenes with their with their development team. What this pad and glove and some of the the new iterations, the new design philosophies behind it, what it's all about, how it's supposed to perform.

We can't wait to get it on the ice and test it ourselves and bring you test your feedback as we get closer to a spring launch, at retail. But, you know, anytime a customizer launches, I don't think everybody realized, like, when the customizer launches, that usually means you can order custom pads. Like, it's they're open for business if you wanna go custom. And there's so much different about this pad and glove, The strapping, the materials, obviously, the the way the knee and the calf are attached, still has the slide plate removable, but there's just so much that's different. So many upgrades that they made in this pad.

So many innovations that I think, you know, according to the people that have tested it so far, make it sliding incredibly fast with or without the slide plate, even faster than g seven. We wanted to make sure that we brought, you know, an overall picture. Because if you're on that customizer, you design a set that you really like, and unlike Daren, you don't allow your dog to nudge you and wipe it all out, and you actually wanna proceed to order, you kinda wanna know what that pad's all about, like how it's gonna actually perform. And there's a lot of unique aspects to this one from a strapping perspective as well. They built a hammock on the back of a calf that, again, like all things Warrior, fully modular and adjustable.

So if don't like it, you can make it like a traditional strap. But a real a lot has gone into making a really modern progressive pad with the ability to dial it into the type of connection and feel you would expect out of a softer, more flexible traditional pad. And so can't wait to get that on the leg and on the ice and see how it how all this all the innovation translates to performance.

So just a shout out to Ryan over at City National Arena. He is a a goalie through and through, like, deep to the bones, and he's got too many sticks to count. I keep telling him, like, enough of the sticks. But he came to me the other day and said, have you checked out the Alpha Surge? It's awesome.

I said, funny. We talked about that with InGoal. We've got a great deep dive on it. I don't know. Overview.

And and I told him that I was on the customizer, and I was all the way through it, playing around with a couple of different things, changing it up. And right then, my dog gave me a little bump, and I lost it. Now I have to start over, which is gonna be so much fun to be able to to go through it and and and check it out. So there there is some really cool things playing around with the glove a little bit, and and that's that's a great feature that Kaz really loves.

Yeah. No. And and the the the big pockets continue, like the emphasis on a smaller cuff, bigger pocket that that Kaz really liked when we did our overview of the gloves. But now instead of having the same break angle and two different sort of glove builds around it, they've actually changed. So they still have the 75 degree, but now there's a 90 degree as well.

And so rather than just changing where the pocket is in relationship to the break angle, they've done some of that and sorta, you know, more higher up on the thumb, less on the fingers, but also change the break angle itself. So more of a 90 degree sorta in in your palm fingers closing into the base of the thumb type closure that a lot of goalies are looking for. So, again, can't wait to get it on the ice. It feels really good on your hand off the ice, and I just can't wait to see how the all this translates and get it into the hands of our testers and get some feedback because there is that's a that's a big change, but it's it there's also a lot of subtle changes. The strapping's been updated.

They've got an imprint foam in there where your fingers should leave a mark and sorta allow you to sorta build a groove with where you want it in the glove. Just a ton of different things that all sound great in theory, and we just wanna see how it works in reality. And we'll get that back to you once we once we get more feedback.

Great news. My lack of ability to stop pucks in a regular basis is not my fault. It all comes down to just an unstable pelvic pelvis. That that that's what happened. That's part of our conversation in our future interview this week that we'll get to brought to you by Sense Arena with the guys, over at Sports Science Solution.

Give, everybody an idea of what's coming up.

Well, this is one where I wrote a story about sorta the butterfly and and how teams were measuring drop rates using things like catapult. And it ended up making the rounds that story in a USA hockey goalie coach

group chat.

And Rob weighed in and talked about this technology that he developed, Rob Day of Sports Science Solutions along with Casey Cox. Now Rob has coached right up to the NCAA. He's been coaching goalies for forty years. Casey was one of his students, played up to college hockey, had to end early because of injuries and hips. Casey became like an like an elite high end level PGA golf instructor and that some of the tech well, also doing a PhD in biomechanics and some of the golf technology, he was able to apply it to motion capture, and they're gonna get into it and explain it much better than I am right now.

But, basically, to identify what really he wanted to figure out why his body broke down at such an early age on him. Can we do anything to fix it? Can we do anything different with goaltenders to help them avoid it? And what it led to, thanks to some of this technology that they adapted to hockey and goaltending, was the ability to just sort of see where these injuries originate, to predict them somewhat in terms of what patterns are going to lead to certain types of injuries. And if you can predict an injury coming, that means you can start to take preventative measures.

So some really fascinating stuff, including as much as we focused and I, in my writing, have focused on the butterfly drop, the reality that a hard t push stop, if you really kick that heel out, actually creates more sheer force inside the hip than the butterfly drop and may be doing just as much, if not more damage for certain goaltenders. We get into all those things in this discussion. So couple of guys that love and live the position even if they're not playing it anymore at a really high level with a Rob has an engineering background. Obviously, Casey has a biomechanics, working towards his PhD in biomechanics right now. Fascinating background there.

And the two of them have used some of the tools from the golf world, brought them into hockey, and created the ability to sort of measure what really matters when it comes to goaltending health, goaltending injuries, and goaltending hips. And we get into all of it over the course of forty five minutes in this week's feature interview.

Yeah. Two extremely intelligent human beings, but don't be intimidating. But no. But they do an incredible job walking everybody through it in conversation with you. So looking forward to that in just a little bit.

First, let's get to the Vizual Edge ProReads.

And this week on the Vizual Edge ProReads, we're gonna go to Alex Lyon. Before we get there, though, do you want the puck to look like a beach ball? Every goalie has that night here and there where the puck looks huge. You're ahead of every play. You feel calm, patient, and total control.

Then there are the nights where you're a half step late. You see it, but you don't really see it. You're reaching, guessing, fighting it. That's not your technique. That's your eyes and brain not processing the play fast enough.

Vizual Edge fixes that. It measures how well your eyes track and process the game then gives you a custom plan that trains it. Three fifteen minute sessions a week are all it takes. On your laptop, on your tablet tap, on your tablet. I almost said on your tablet because, of course

Oh, that would make sense.

It would have made sense because he's a vizual edge user. Yeah. On your tablet, on your couch, wherever. It's what NHL goal is used to make the game slow down when it matters most. And, of course, you get an discount using InGoal, all caps, I n g o a l, at checkout.

But if you're a member and you check out our ProReads, you get a member exclusive double discount, and you get that code. I can't I almost said the code out on air, Daren. This is clearly how messed up I am tonight. You need to be a member, you go need to go to a ProReads at ingoalmag.com, and you will see that members only code to save double. I think it's 10% with the regular one and twenty percent with the InGoal code, so make sure you check that out.

It's great savings. And, also, make sure you check it out because it's a great way to make more saves. And in this week's ProReads, we break down a lateral backdoor with Alex Lyon. And it you know, there's an element of sort of movement and of tracking and anticipation in this ProReads, but mostly, it's a great lesson on the importance of preparation even when you're not not starting a game. Because this is Alex Lyon getting into a game because Colten Ellis got involved in a collision that led to a concussion or a concussion spotter.

He goes in cold for the second straight night, ends up winning the game, and this this was the win that started the 10 straight for the Buffalo Sabres. This was the moment that started it for him where he played, I believe, the first six of those 10 in a row. All started by coming off the bench. So he walks us through the important aspects of preparation, both mentally and physically, that allowed him to come into that game and how in the opening minutes. Sometimes you just have to survive knowing you don't have your a stuff.

Your hips aren't functioning the way they normally are. You've been sitting on a bench for forty minutes before you get into the game. Survive to the end of the period, then reset, and go from there. And so some great lessons in this week's ProRead from Alex Lyon on sort of how to do that as well as the actual breaking down of the situation and and how he managed it in his own words, not a pretty looking save, but still got him himself into a spot where he was basically forcing the shooter to make a perfect shot to beat him by filling a good chunk of the net.

Parent Playbook

Alright. Somewhere in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, or possibly Ontario, David Hutchison is, working his way around Western Canada, and he stops by with our Stop It Goaltending U the app parent segment. Before we get to Hutch, what's happening over at Stop It Goaltending?

How about twenty five years of NHL goalie coaching experience at your fingertips? I like that. That's what oh, that sounds good to me. That's what they put into the Stop It Goaltending U. You wanna tap into goal goalie parenting expertise that helped Joey Daccord reach the NHL?

That's what you get with a subscription to Stop It Goaltending U, the app. All that knowledge from Brian Daccord has been an NHL goalie coach, scout, and director, as well as the insights and expertise from his staff at Stop It, which last year celebrated twenty five years as one of the world's top goalie schools and includes teachers who who work and are working right up to the NCAA and some in the National Hockey League and scouting capacities. All delivered to you on your phone or tablet in easy to digest chunks, including five short daily primers each week, weekly style analysis and breakdown videos, and drills that you can take onto the ice with your team and coach. Plus, you get an InGoal premium subscription included. So check it out now at the App Store or Google Play Store and get the best of both worlds with a subscription to Stop It Goaltending U, the app, and a subscription that comes with it to InGoal Magazine premium.

Was Hutch able to give you a heads up of what he's going to talk about? Because he won't share that stuff with me.

Well, you know, he trusts me, Darren. He trusts me. That's what makes sense. So this week's parent segment is about not getting too caught up in the identity, too tied up into the identity, into the game as parents and goal and as goal. And so some important lessons from Hutch on that in this week's parents.

That's That's why he wouldn't share it with me because I wouldn't understand that. Hutch, explain.

One of the most common questions in youth hockey is also one of the most uncomfortable. Whose dream is this? And the honest answer, most of the time, is that it lives on both sides of the relationship. The parent side. As parents, we don't just support our kids' goaltending journeys, we organize our lives around them.

The schedules, the travel, the community. The pride in watching them chase something hard. Over time, it's easy for the supportive parent to quietly become a core part of who we are. And that's not wrong. But there's a moment where support can drift into something heavier when their success feels like validation for you, when their struggles get to feel too personal for you, and when stepping back would feel like losing a piece of yourself.

A useful check-in isn't Am I too invested? It's If this ended tomorrow, what would I need help letting go of? That question isn't about guilt. It's about awareness. Now on the child's side, we have to worry about one role becoming the whole person.

For kids, goaltending can become a powerful identity. It's how they're known. It's where they feel competent. It's where they receive praise and attention, which are so important to them. But kids, of course, are still building who they are as a person.

They aren't just goaltenders. They're students. They're friends, siblings, creators, thinkers, leaders. There's so much more to being a child than just being a goaltender. When one identity crowds out the others, and let's be honest, it often does, even in a positive way, it creates a risk.

Not just a burnout, but fragility. Because if being a goalie becomes the only place they feel valued, then those bad games hit them a lot harder. It feels a lot more personal. And change can be a real threat to them. So I actually think these two things overlap on each other.

Parents and kids can both become over invested in the same identity for different reasons. Parents may cling to the journey because it provides meaning and connection. And of course we're doing it because we love our kids. Kids may cling to it because it provides certainty and approval. And of course, it's fun.

Neither is wrong, but we need to balance them. We have to work on both sides. The solution, of course, isn't to care less. It's actively cultivating other parts of the identity on both sides. For parents, that might mean reinvest parts of yourself that existed before you were in the rink all the time.

Protect some of those relationships and interests that have nothing to do with hockey. And letting your child see that your world is bigger than their performance. That's not to put them down. That's to make sure that they understand that when things don't go well for them, that's okay. We don't want them feeling that this is everything to you and that when things don't go well for them, they're letting you down.

You know, for the kids, it means we need to celebrate effort and character, not just the outcomes. Because effort and character can carry over into any role in their life. We need to really support, even encourage interests that are outside the crease. And we need to make it clear, repeatedly, that their value doesn't change on hard days. Indeed, that our value we see in them is not about being a goaltender, that we love them for everything else about them.

Just importantly, it means we have to practice letting go even while we're still involved. Let go of the control. So it's theirs. Let go ownership of the outcomes. Let go of the idea that this path has to look a certain way.

the healthiest goalie journeys are the ones where parents stay engaged without being too entangled, where kids feel supported without being defined, where both sides understand that this chapter matters but it isn't the whole story. The goal isn't to protect the dream at all costs, it's to protect the people living inside it.

And that's something we definitely get tied up in. Parents all the time talking in the rink to each other about what's Johnny doing, what's Susie doing, making sure we're following just the right path. Every child can have their own path inside and outside the rink. Now bringing it all back together, the healthiest goalie journeys are the ones where parents stay engaged without being too entangled, where kids feel supported without being defined, where both sides understand that this chapter matters but it isn't the whole story. The goal isn't to protect the dream at all costs, it's to protect the people living inside it.

And when both parents and kids are allowed to be more than just goalie and goalie parent, the game actually becomes safer, healthier, and more enjoyable for everyone.

Hutch will be back with us, as part of the, overall packaging of this podcast, next week. It's good to have him around to keep us in line because we got a little goofy early on. We we we went down a couple of different avenues that we weren't attending.

Oh, when when dad when dad's away, the kids will play.

Yeah. Party time. Dude, that's dangerous now. Imagine the damage we could have done, you and I, throwing house parties.

House record for sure. Oh, it's a record

for There'd be some gyp rock patching going on.

No. No. Not necessarily. Not unless you were the bad boy because I we I've I've got a few house parties that included, like, 250 people in my history, but I also had a buddy back in school who ultimately ended up in the Hells Angels, and he worked the door. So it was all in the backyard.

We I'm I almost got away with it. It wasn't for the the empties in the bushes a week later that were discovered and maybe some calls from the the neighbors about the 250 people in the cul de sac. Not a not a person made a peep in the house. I can tell you that because I had some muscle out there. My brother couldn't even he snuck out and couldn't even get back into the house that night.

I once put a hockey poster on the wall in in our kitchen at the where my parents got home.

To cover cover up what?

Yeah. Because there's a hole in the drywall. I'm like, I can't believe picked up on that.

See, my my my OCD carried me through. My my my bad boy stage came with OCD cleanliness. It was a

good life lesson though on how to fix a hole because I've I've had to do it a few times over the years being a a homeowner. So let's get into our NHL Sense Arena feature interview and before that, a message from NHL Sense Arena.

We always talk about how NHL Sense Arena is constantly evolving. And one of the things that they've added this year or they've increased the focus on this year is Hockey IQ. We all know that it's important, goalie IQ. And this is the year you can make twenty twenty six count. This is the year of Hockey IQ for goalies.

Every season goalies focus on quicker feet, stronger pushes, and better technique, but the biggest jump in performance is often from something less visible. How fast you read the play, anticipate threats, and make decisions under pressure. This year, commit to goalie IQ training and see the difference show up in every game. From recognizing developing plays earlier to manage rebounds, puck touches, and traffic more confidently, goalie IQ training helps you play calmer, faster, and more in control. When your mind is ahead of a puck of the puck, the game starts to slow down and your consistency goes way up.

So goalie IQ training is a big part of 2026 for NHL Sense Arena. We've talked about it before. It's not just a great way to get reps without having to get ice. There are so many extra components. Reading plays, decision making speed, visual tracking, all trained and measured by NHL Sense Arena.

Make sure you check out their latest offerings, their latest iterations when you download the app onto your headset.

What do think the percentages of goaltenders in the National Hockey that train their eyes or warm up their eyes?

I think they all do something. Yeah. Right? Like, there's some that use NHL. Some are

are on the bench before a warm up and cameras catch them.

Yeah. You see Hellebuyck doing the eyes back and forth, different different focal points. We used to see Braden Holtby doing it. We we know guys use visual edge. We know guys use NHL Sense Arena.

You know, guys bouncing balls off walls. Definitely, I I think everybody's got something they do to warm up their eyes.

And then you get into the pelvis, which is the, really, the starting point, for everything for goaltending. Didn't know that, until I listened to this conversation that you had with Rob and Casey over at Sports Science Solutions. And these guys are way out of my league when it comes to intelligence. But the way they break this down and the impact on the body and the wear and tear and being able to manage it or predict injuries and and get in front of it. This is one of the best interviews in all the episodes of InGoal Radio, the podcast.

Yeah. And this is you know, my favorite one? Like, the two kinds of favorites. Right? Like, we had Drew Commesso on recently, and that's one that you like, when you discover a guy, you've always talked about, like, the first time you heard an interview with Jeremy Swayman in college.

Yeah. Those are my favorites when we get to know a young up and comer. Getting a lot of that in the PWHL right now too, by the way, some great interviews there. My other one is when, you know, we write a story or something and we get feedback and and somebody new comes into our world based on, you know, interaction with something we've posted and a response to it, and that's exactly what this is. I had not heard of Sports Science Solutions.

I had heard a little bit of Rob Day, but I'd never met Casey Cox. I didn't know much about what they were doing. And now, honestly, after after sort of getting, the background on it and getting a better understanding of it and then having this conversation with them, I'd honest with you, like, I'm a little surprised that more NHL teams aren't investing in a conversation and with them, especially

when Well, I think that's coming after after this.

Yeah. Like, it's one thing to be like, they've unlocked, and you listen to this conversation. It's they didn't go in with any preconceived notions. They tested one team and then that team ran into injuries and they said, Okay, before you tell us what the injuries are, here's what we've they we've here's what our data says is most likely to be and it matched. So what the data was showing them would likely lead to injuries ultimately did.

So now your next step as you sort of dig through that is, okay. If we're correct and we can do this, that means that we can start to take preventative measures. And imagine the value of that to an NHL team. Like, to be able to recognize instability and know what it's going to lead to and start to train to prevent it or know that you because we focus so much on load management in the NHL, but they're, you know, talking to these guys, there's there's more to it. There's another level here.

So, anyways, listen. I let's just come down.

How to get better. Like Oh, the efficiency on on a deficiency to make yourself better. It's it's the same as working on your your glove hand if if you think your glove's low, but work on an area of the body that that's gonna help you.

Right. And and they can measure some of the efficiency improvements and find efficiency improvements in movement within that. So it's not just preventative in terms of injury and and being able to identify it before it happens, which I think has huge value, but you're right there. It's all there's also a performance aspect of this, and we even get into the neurological side of it with Casey as well. So as it branches off, clearly, all these things connected as we know as goaltenders, these guys just defined it at a level I've never heard before.

So fascinating conversation. Can't wait to share it with everyone.

So as you get ready to listen to this, I want you to visualize your body and and think about your pelvis and your chest and your your head and where all that is tying in. And as as you listen, you can almost play along and and and visualize your body as the guys talk about the the different attributes of making saves and that impact on your hips and your frame of your body. It is the NHL Sense Arena feature interview. Fascinating stuff. Can't wait to bring this to you with Rob Day and Casey Cox from Sports Science Solutions.

Enjoy.

Feature Interview - Rob Day & Casey Cox

We've got a special interview for you here on the InGoal Radio Podcast today, one that I'm not quite sure where this is gonna go because we started talking biomechanics. I heard the phrase neuromechanics, which is totally new to me, but you know that we love digging into all things new and science y and anything innovation wise that can help goalies we're all about. So I'm really happy to introduce Rob Day and Casey Cox. They do do work with Motion IQ, and they've dug into some of these biomechanics at a level that I'm not sure all of us really are aware of or understand. So for starters, guys, introduce yourselves to our audience.

Fill us in a little bit on your background, how you connected, and how this all got started. Catch us up.

Do all well. I'm Rob Day, cofounder of Sports Science Solutions and my partner, Casey Cox. I am a goaltender coach of 41 on a part time basis, twenty seven on a full time. I've coached at the I'm former engineer prior to that. Made everything from missiles and nerf balls, but, I am I've coached at the NCAA men's division one, two, and three level, the NCAA women's division one and three level, every level of juniors you can coach at, tier one, tier two, and tier three, coach at the club level and, of NCAA and, boys and girls prep hockey in addition to youth hockey, parents of a female goaltender that went on to play in the NCAA, and parent of a soccer goalie currently in the NCAA.

So and my father was a goaltender. So many years, generations of, goaltending in our family, so it kinda runs into that. Casey is a former student of mine and, brought about eight years ago now, brought an interesting concept here, so I'm gonna let him speak about his background as well and, that.

Yeah. Thanks. So, yeah, Casey Cox here, the other cofounder from Sports Science Solutions. And, like Rob mentioned, former former goalie student of his, hockey is my the love of my life and still is. So through my career, I ended up making it to the NCAA level.

By the time I got to college, my, you know, my hips and my body were really breaking down. And so after college, my curiosity level in trying to help break down the mechanics of goaltending and try to solve some of the common problems we see with hips kinda led me down the road of biomechanics. I've always been involved with the golf industry in some way, shape, or form. Just out of chance, I started working at a golf course when I was young and became a golf professional post college, and then really started to apply biomechanics through golf and started to research in golf, but also had this itch to move outside of golf and move back into the hockey world and apply a lot of these biomechanical concepts in hockey. So I reached out to Rob probably around 2016, 2017 area, and we started talking about what this might look like to bring biomechanics into hockey.

We were using some technology in golf that allowed us to take really deep level biomechanical analysis, what I described as in the wild, and we applied that to hockey. So we're using some of the most advanced technology that the game has ever seen to take, you know, more advanced data on biomechanical forces and movement on the ice than anything we've ever seen. So we've used that data over the years to understand the structures of hockey, everything from skating to shooting and goaltending, and really have been able to break down those mechanics on a biomechanical level to understand where the causes are coming from in a lot of these common injuries that we see through hockey players.

And I think we've amassed over that time frame, well, 1,800,000,000,000 data points, Casey. I think that's around pretty close. Yeah.

So it's a lot.

Yeah. A thousand players. Yeah. Over about a thousand players.

Okay. So, because some of the findings might, from what I understand from brief conversations, and and I'm diving into this for the first time myself as well here, folks, but might run a little counterintuitive to some of the butterfly narratives and some of the things that that we, know, that we assume or that we've been told to assume for a long time. So I don't know if you wanna go there first or or explain a little bit more about about those measurements, about some of those focal points, and about some of the technology that's allowed you to that you've you've been a part of developing that's allowed you to sort of examine these things maybe through a lens that others aren't seeing?

Yeah. I mean, the technology is pretty unique. It was an adapted system, like I said, that came from golf. We're using sensors that take three-dimensional acceleration measurements, three-dimensional, gyroscopic, so rotational, accelerations. And then you're looking as well at, magnetometers.

So the the sensors themselves integrate three different units, an accelerometer, gyroscope, and a magnetometer. Basically, what that gives you is the ability to measure force in all three dimensions. And so these sensors allow us not just to measure where a player is moving or where their body part moved to, but actually measuring the force that got that movement to occur. And so when we look back at kind of the biomechanical spectrum, it's important to understand if we go back to I I hate to turn this into a physics class, but Newton's first law. And so if we look at that objects at rest, stay at rest, objects of motion stay in motion.

Right? We've all kind of heard that before. The easy way to say that and the practical way to look at that is force comes before movement. Right? And so if we wanna understand movement, if we wanna understand goaltending movement like a butterfly, understanding the forces that cause that movement to occur is exceptionally important.

And the system that we're using allows us to measure those forces in all three dimensions of movement. And so when we put this sensor on the body or we put multiple sensors in the body, we start to understand how the body is creating force and what that relationship of force is moving through the body, which again allows us to understand joint load and these other types of metrics that are associated with the injuries that we're seeing. And so through those measurements, we get to see the patterns of force that correlate to function. We get to see the patterns of force that correlate to injury. And so when we assess an athlete or a goaltender, we're able to start to see the underlying effects of what's going on kinda under the hood of that car so that we can look down the road and say, okay.

This pattern is going to lead to x, y, or z in the future.

Mhmm. I didn't wanna miss that because this isn't just about maybe some observations that might run counter to previous assumptions, but you're able to actually this is diagnostic. You can identify patterns that are gonna lead to problems before hopefully, before those problems occur if you're assessing athletes and using using these tools and these sensors?

1000%. And I think for us, the real differentiator for us is that we wanted to base what we were doing, not just in our opinions. Rob's been an amazing goaltender coach his whole life. I know that because I was one of his students, but being able to apply objective data to what we do really differentiates what we're doing. I'm not there rendering my opinion on this person or how they're moving.

I do have an opinion, right, based on my own goaltender experience, my own coaching experience, but that's not what we're basing our decision making process on. We've taken our entire assessment and our entire decision making process and objectively began to measure things that guide the process of what moving forward for that athlete looks like. And I think it's that of the ability to objectively measure this information that so directly correlates back to function and health that has really distinguished what we are doing in terms of the ability to really uncover things on a much deeper level than what we've ever been able to do.

Yeah. And I think we found that out too when we first started off. Excuse me there, Kevin. When we first started off, I think one of the first goaltenders that we had worked with, ended up playing division one college, And he did a couple of movements in in our testing, and Casey noticed, hey. This is a pattern here that might cause you an issue down the road.

We took the information, got it to his respective strength coach, and then we turned around. We're able to test him a couple months later after him him spending some time, in the corrective action piece and came back that, hey. Alright. You've we've been able to correct that pattern for you. And there was an additional situation where my daughter was playing for one junior team, they and had to cancel a tournament.

And we had tested that junior team, you know, prior, right, when we were just in the data collection stage. And they couldn't play the tournament because too many peep too many of the skaters were injured. So we went back through and and as I kinda remember the story, I said, well, Casey's the the genius part in this here. I said, it's gonna be the blind leading the blind. So I went down and talked to the coach, and we said, alright.

Here's what we found with these girls. This is where we see the injury. What is it? This is where we see the potential injury. What is it?

And we were, like, spot spot on a 100% for the ones that were injured. So and that was at the very early stages, and that's been refined as we've gone along. I just wanted to add that in there because I think it was relevant to how much we've been able how and how good Casey's been able to dial in on the software so that we can get really good prediction of where something could go wrong for somebody and but also improve their performance too.

So that predictive nature, I mean, I'm thinking, like, if I'm an NHL team, I'm just like, I should be all over this. Like, I wanna know I wanna see when injuries are gonna come, you know, from being able to strap these sensors on. What and I know it it applies to more than just goaltenders as you just said, but maybe can you give me an example? Because we haven't named names. But can you give me an example of, like, something that you see in the data and what type of correction you could make in the training that reduces maybe, like like, almost like an example that just sort of brings into the real world terms for the goalies that are listening, and and they're trying to picture in their mind what that looks like.

What would they see that would allow me to fix something and prevent an injury?

So one of the things that we look at a lot is pelvic stability. It's kind of what we look at as the foundation of health for a goalie. And so the pelvis is the bone structure that connects your torso to your hips. Right? And so the pelvic structure, for goaltenders we have found is tends to be extremely unstable.

Part of the issue with observing this is that when a goalie wears pants, we can't see if his pelvis is unstable and moving around or not because the pelvis is moving independently of what you're looking at with that player's equipment. So when we started looking at pelvic measurements, we started to see how much excessive movement was actually happening through that part of the body, and that's linked to the body's recovery from balance. So if the body is in a position where the nervous system does not feel its balance, it's gonna start using pieces of the body, the rib cage and the pelvis mainly, to start moving those pieces around to try to create that balance. Well, all of that excessive movement of the body trying to seek balance is taking away from the ability to react directly to, say, a shot. Right?

And so if the body had to go through this corrective process, and that may take milliseconds, but that's creating a delay between the time when the body can react to the shot and actually move to that shot. So what we'll see a lot is there's a delay feature. Let's say a shot comes from the point in the middle of the ice, and the goalie's going to make a glove save. We'll actually see the more pelvic instability there is. The body is instinctually going to draw the hands inward.

you'll see a lot of goalies that struggle to use their hands or struggle to use their legs for rebound control effectively because they're actually fighting stability issues in the pelvis. And when we measure that, we can start to create that awareness for the goalie. And as soon as we create that stability, you're gonna see the reaction times of the arms and the legs go up tremendously as well as that goalie's ability to recover and just maintain balance in the everyday flow of goaltending.

It's gonna draw the elbows and arms inward to the body while it's going through this, resolution to its balance. Once it's balanced, then it'll allow you to extend. And so you'll see a lot of goalies that struggle to use their hands or struggle to use their legs for rebound control effectively because they're actually fighting stability issues in the pelvis. And when we measure that, we can start to create that awareness for the goalie. And as soon as we create that stability, you're gonna see the reaction times of the arms and the legs go up tremendously as well as that goalie's ability to recover and just maintain balance in the everyday flow of goaltending.

So that's a really basic example.

And I'm guessing that instability is also the corrective parts. Like, you have more moving parts in the body that that's where you add the force applied to goaltending and instability and moving parts. That's probably where we get into the injury savings.

Absolutely. And this is where, again, we started looking at this functionally, trying to understand what this looked like. And Rod kind of mentioned that case study where we had looked at the girls team. And, again, at the early stages, we weren't rendering any opinions on anything because we didn't know what we were looking at. And that case study, when we went back and we're able to look and find those injury predictions, really started us down this road of being able to correlate patterns to injury.

And what we found with goaltending is that that pattern of function in the pelvis is not just linked to performance, which it is directly related to reaction timing and performance, but it's also the number one link to the injuries that we see in hips. And so all of that excessive movement changes the load of the hip and it changes how that hip socket moves. And the more unstable the pelvis is, the less mobile the hip joint becomes. And so you're going down into these butterflies. If your hips are unstable and your pelvis is unstable, you're putting excessive load into those joints.

And so you're you're really increasing the amount of load and the wear and tear on the body, and it's not necessary. There's no functional need for the pelvis to be doing all that extra movement other than a lack of understanding and training. And as coaches, we can't see that stuff. I can't look at a goalie with my eyes and see whether his pelvis is stable or not. And so being able to measure these and not just measure the movement, but like I said, measure the actual forces that are moving through this player's pelvis gives us the understanding of what type of risk this player is at for not only losing functionality over time, but health.

And that's really, again, why we get into this whole thing.

Well, I think of a pelvis as sort of a fixed bone structure, but obviously, that's that's too narrow thinking because all the muscles that attach to it and through that area are all things that can be trained differently to improve stability, I would imagine.

Of course. Yeah. And there's a lot like you said, there's a lot of integrated, you know, muscle structures and other reasons why the body will move the way it moves. And this is where we get into the neural side. Right?

So my biomechanics background led me to some blockages where I found that regardless of addressing biomechanical issues, we weren't able to uncover or unlock certain patterns, which leads us to that next stage, which is your nervous system controls everything. Your muscles are slaves to your nervous system. Right? And so if we wanna understand biomechanics, neuromechanics, and how your brain operates is really what's controlling the decision making process for the body. And so you can get yourself into an example here where if the body is not balanced, you're you're going to have an effect from the nervous system.

Right? So your autonomic nervous system is controlling things that we don't necessarily think about. Your breathing and your balance. Right? And it's those things over anything that you ask it to do.

And that's why in the example that I gave when you're in balance, your body is gonna try to resolve balance before you actually go and make that save. Well, the same is true of your pelvis here. Right? If we're dealing with imbalance issues in your pelvis, your autonomic nervous system is always going to resolve those issues before it allows you to function. So if your nervous system is controlling your body and making decisions for any given reason and you're not addressing those issues, your body is going to resist change.

So you might understand exactly what I'm asking you to do. You may be able to do it in a drill, but when your body comes down to a reactive state and it's time to actually do that, it's not going to do it if there is the nervous system standing in its way. So there there are multiple kind of layers to what we're talking about doing here.

Yeah. It's interesting too because I think of, vestibular, probably plays a role in this as well and how we move, like, body automatically making adjustments in how we move based on what it senses in our balance also dictates some of this incident. Right? Like, if our body thinks we're falling backwards because we pulled our head off a puck going east west, then it automatically does certain things through the torso and even even with butterfly with to compensate from that, and that's where that neurological into the you can say don't do this. Don't do this biomechanically.

Like, keep that that butterfly wide, But as soon as you get into that vestibular and that neurological, it it's forcing the body. And when you start fighting against those things, I'm guessing that's another area where you're on you're gonna start creating injuries because the the automated part is telling the body to do one thing, and you're trying to train it to do another.

And you get into efficiencies as well too. You know? If you're you start cutting down your efficiencies depending on how many things you have to start accessing to perform your movements.

And that all plays back to mental clarity. Right? When your body is going through this high level stress and it's trying to recover from all these positions, it's really hard to stay mentally clear. All of these systems start to play together, right? To say that we're dealing with an isolated system is missing the bigger picture of of all of the different influences that we're dealing with here.

And I think that is where for us, you know, getting the big picture through our assessment and looking at again, we do a nervous system assessment. We're doing physical movement screens. We're doing actual functional screens while you're playing the game. Right? We're trying to leave no stone unturned in that objective assessment so that we understand where all the physical pieces are.

Because I may be looking at something on the ice that I don't like from a movement standpoint, the way be it's way you're reacting to pucks or recovering or whatever it may be. And I might find that, you know, that's not necessarily correlated to a a functional movement issue. Maybe it's a nervous system issue. Right? Or vice versa.

You know? So I think for us, looking at all the different objective measures gives us a really clear picture of not only what's happening, but how that is happening and why it's happening. And if we wanna understand how to properly prescribe a blueprint for the future for an athlete to stay healthy and maximize their performance, understanding all of those components to me is a nonnegotiable. I don't think that leaving any of those pieces out is gonna give you an accurate idea of what the best course of action moving forward for that goal is.

Talking about conclusions or or maybe maybe conclusions is the wrong word. I apologize. Don't have a science background. I don't wanna be too in a position where there are no absolutes, I don't wanna be the one using absolute terms here. So what are some of the things, though, that like, it sounds like there are maybe some assumptions, including assumptions I've made in my writing, frankly, about the butterfly and about the effects and and that that maybe aren't matching some of what you're finding in this research in terms of where those impacts are coming from.

And, obviously, the pelvis insta pelvic instability plays a role in it. But even with a stable pelvis, you're still dropping into a position that's probably not overly natural for the human body. So but have we overstated the butterfly's role in this? I know there's some studies out there about, you know, kicking the heel out in a hard stop on a t push, creating a lot of that internal rotation and perhaps being just as damaging when we talk about goalies and hips long terms. What are some of the things that you're seeing that are maybe more broadly applied as much as each goalie is a is an individual and has their own biomechanics that they bring to this assessment?

Well, you raise a really interesting point with that because, again, we do demonize the butterfly a lot. We have some really interesting research going on right now down in Dallas, and, that research is really starting to differentiate where these forces and the magnitude of the forces and how frequently those forces occur. I think that it's it's a it's a it's it's for some players, it's more of one than another. Right? I would say it's not it's not always just one.

The butterfly is in in it's an unnatural movement pattern even when done to the best of our abilities. Right? So there's an inevitability right now based on the design of equipment and the way that the movement pattern is that there's just an inevitability that's not healthy for the athlete. So, yes, we are trying to minimize the damage that's done by that movement pattern, but that's one that has an an inevitable effect to it over time. The other one you mentioned, what I think is really interesting and overlooked are these hard stops.

We just analyzed a goalie a couple months ago. I believe he's a division one player, and his hip accelerations were twice in his stopping than it was in his butterfly. So he was sending twice as much load, rotational sheer load through that hip joint as he was when he was butterflying, and that's just completely unnecessary.

We're seeing like, we just analyzed a a goalie a couple months ago. I believe he's a division one player, and his hip accelerations were twice in his stopping than it was in his butterfly. So he's doing he was sending twice as much load, rotational shear load through that hip joint as he was when he was butterflying, and that's just completely unnecessary. Right? I mean, that you're talking about a movement pattern stopping that just doesn't there are so many other ways you could teach somebody on a mechanics level to stop to completely remove any ill effects from that.

And so those are the things to look at. Again, the butterfly, are you ever gonna get away from completely doing damage? No. But we can minimize it. Stopping, that's a that's a low hanging fruit that, again, that we shouldn't be seeing that in any goaltenders.

That's completely unnecessary. It's not tied to anything that functionally needs to be going on. And so, yeah, I look at that stuff, and and there are certain pieces of this that are more egregious than others. But I would say there is a very short list of things and principles that we would live by and say that all goalies need to check these boxes to maximize their ability to, again, maximize performance, minimize risk injury. And and based upon that foundation, again, that's where you're gonna get into the very subjective nature of how we're moving and the best course of action for each player based on how they move and and all these different factors.

But, yes, there is absolutely a foundational base of patterns that we would live by and say that these are nonnegotiables.

I'm nervous to even ask because I don't wanna give away anything proprietary, but, like, what are some of those boxes that you can share that, like, in terms of how they're moving? And and I and I not to pull on a whole bunch of strings at once, but when we talk about changing how we stop, and, like, that that's astonishing to me that it's twice the force. Because the irony is, we'll quite often say less butterfly drops make more stand up saves. But if we've got a goalie who's creating twice as much, I believe the term you used was shear force inside their hip, every time then then telling them to stand up more and push around more rather than drop actually maybe doing more harm.

And that comes back to assessment and understanding the athlete you're working with. Right? Because, again, if we're just guessing about all this stuff and we're just taking these principles and blanketly applying it to everybody that you're missing they're missing the bigger picture. Right? So, yeah, I think understanding how that athlete's kind of fingerprint of movement and force looks like is very important when it comes to the decision making process.

But I think, again, you're getting back into principles. Pelvic stability is is that number one principle for us. Right? If we look and I don't wanna get too deep into the science here, but if you look down at the three dimensions of movement, right, you've got your sagittal plane, which is your forward and backwards movement. So in hockey, for goaltender, the sagittal plane should be 100% stable.

We don't want movement, which means we don't want that forward and backward rocking of the hips. When you are stable in the sagittal plane, which is that forward backward plane, that unlocks the mobility in the frontal plane, which is where we create our power. So as a goaltender, if you're unstable in the first plane of motion, your body's not gonna allow you to move to the second plane of motion. And so we look at this kind of as an unlocking sequence where when one part of your body is doing what it should be, the next part of that sequence is unlocked. So we think about movement as kind of this long train.

Right? You've got a lot of interconnected pieces that are all influencing one another. So to get back to one of your points earlier, I don't know that we're necessarily miss identifying things to talk about in goaltending, but I think we're maybe not understanding where those pieces or elements fall on this train. Right? Because we may be talking about things that are happening towards the back of the train, and it's not it would be incorrect to say that they're not influential or they're not a part of that train because they are.

But it's important to understand the context that there are other elements that are further up in that train that are influencing the reality of what you're talking about. And so again, if we want to talk about hand speed or reaction speed of the hands, right, that's a really good example that ties back to your pelvic stability. If the pelvis is unstable, that's the front of the train. If that's derailing every time, you could be doing as good a job as you can with arm positioning and all that. You're not gonna maintain it because the train already derailed.

Right? And so you could be in the fourth train car back managing that fourth train car perfectly doing everything you need to do to have a perfect fourth train car. If the third train car keeps going off the tracks, you're you're gonna keep going too. So that's the concept from a biomechanical standpoint is understanding that there's a chain reaction going on and getting to the front of that train and analyzing objectively what's going on allows you to understand which part of this train do I actually need to assess, which do I need to look at. And so that's again, I I would look at it as if the foundation is the nonnegotiable.

It's funny because we talk about pelvis, and there's been a lot of talk about pelvis in the goaltending world around the phrase neutral pelvis. And I'm guessing I don't know if a neutral pelvis is inherently more stable. If a neutral you know, there's also conversations about whether if we create that, can you even maintain that once you drop into a butterfly, or is that restrictive? Again, without getting and I'm I I apologize because I'm asking specific questions, and there may be some you don't wanna answer, and that's fair because you're you're developing a a product here as well, obviously. But, like, where where you know, from a coaching standpoint versus what the data is saying, where where does that kind of fit?

First of all, I would say that neutral pelvis, again, from a kinesiology standpoint, we could define what neutral is. But neutral for an individual is going to be slightly different based on muscle tone, based on neurological patterning. This is this is kind of the way that I would look at that. Again, if you're if you're tying in an element for an individual, right, let's say neutral pelvis is also dependent on rib cage position. And so really what we're looking at is the relationship between your rib cage and your pelvis.

Okay. We wanna we want a stable pelvis, but we also need the rib cage and pelvis relationship to maintain connection. And the way that we maintain connection between the rib cage and pelvis is by keeping the muscles that physically connect to both of those things turned on. Okay. So we're talking about core engagement.

Right?

Right.

So can you go into a butterfly, maintain a neutral pelvis, and keep your core engaged? Here's an example of the reason why somebody might be able to do that in practice or during a drill, but when it comes time for a game that they don't do that. And this is why it's important not only to measure them in a static environment, but I wanna measure them in a reactive environment. What I described earlier is being in the wild. Right?

So our technology being able to measure these things in the wild while somebody's actually reacting and playing gives me a completely different lens on the behavior of their nervous system when it comes time to actually perform these things. So here's an example of why somebody would be able to maintain this neutrality and this engagement in a in a controlled setting, but not a reactive setting. Okay? So we talked earlier about your nervous system being in charge of this decision making process. Okay?

One of the patterns that your your nervous system operates and controls is your breathing. Okay? And I I apologize. We're gonna get down a rabbit hole here.

So Hey. We we love

a little bit.

We love rabbit holes at InGoal.

Bring the carrots.

If you're if you're willing to give us the time, we will take all the rabbit holes we can handle. Thank you, sir.

So this is we'll go a little bit deeper here. So your nervous system one of the primary things that your nervous system is operating is your breathing. Okay? So you're breathing about 20,000 times a day, right for the average human being. So that is a tremendous workload on your nervous system right.

The muscles associated with inhaling and exhaling are all influenced by this 20,000 repetition activity that you do every day. Nothing that we're gonna do is ever gonna match the rep threshold of your breathing. So the process your body takes, the process your nervous system decides to take for this breathing is exceptionally important. Now when we look at this, your body based on the level of different things it needs to handle, right, your breathing, your heart rate, all the organ function, all this stuff is autonomously happening. If your body believes it can gain one half of a percent of efficiency by putting you in a certain position or turning a certain muscle on or off, it's going to try to do that.

Right? Our brain is something that is always trying to take the easy way out. Okay? So in that sense, if we look at your breathing patterns, right, the easiest pathway to breathing for everybody biologically and anatomically is through your left ab wall. And the reason why that is is is multifunctional.

There's a there's a difference in the way your diaphragm connects on the left and the right, but there's also more room for displacement on the left than the right internally. So when your lungs expand, right, that displaces air and pressure within your chest and stomach cavity. So all of that air and pressure has to go somewhere. Because we have more organ by volume on the right side of your body, there is less internal space on the right side for that expansion. There's more space on the left side for that expansion and contraction.

So it's easier for your body to breathe through the left side of your chest and your stomach than it is through the right side. Yeah. If it's based on left

side too, that helps as well. When you're

There's a bunch of stuff that'll help with this. But the idea is that because it's easier for your body to operate on one side than the other for the capacity of breathing, your body frequently will try to keep the muscles on the left side of your body off. Because by keeping those muscles off, it opens up and maintains this pathway to breathing. So somebody who is in a controlled setting may be able to use their core, especially if we're cuing them to do so, and they'll be able to go through their patterns. But for that person, if neurologically their brain is always intent on keeping certain muscles off like the left ab wall because that's the pathway to breathing, as soon as you take your attention off that, that left ab wall is gonna get shut off so that the body can reenter that pattern of breathing.

If that is a a reality for a goaltender, and by the way, this is the pattern that is true of about sixty five to seventy percent of humans based on research. If that is somebody's neurological pattern, when they get on the ice, their body is naturally gonna shut off the core on that left side. And now we have a cascading effect of the body trying to compensate around the lack of core engagement on the left. And, again, now we get into this long cycle of compensation. But that's a good example of how your autonomic nervous system can create a pattern that then dictates how your body is going to operate as soon as you go into a reactive state.

And I'm guessing, like, if it's true of sixty five percent, obviously, a huge percentage of the population that if we did research, we might, who knows, find that goalies that have success at the highest level aren't part of that sixty five percent because they're not turning it off automatically.

I would say yes, but what terrifies me is that I have found no correlation between efficiency and level of play in goaltending. So I look at a player in high school, and I see inefficiency, and I see instability. And I look at a player who's playing professional hockey, and I see a lot of the same patterns. But the professional hockey player is stronger. They've developed a better compensation.

They can work around these problems. But to assume that just because a player is playing at a higher level that they don't have these issues would be entirely incorrect. So That's how I went into this, but that the data has shown otherwise.

Interesting. And so they're succeeding compensating, but at the end of the day, ultimately, more compensation leads to more injury risk. So if we can eliminate that compensation at an earlier age, we're going to reduce injuries. And there's probably some things my guess from the outside would be, there are probably some things you identify that are like, hey. This is gonna lead to an injury, and this is an easy fix.

And there might be other things in there that are like, hey. This might hurt you when you're 50, but it's so innate in your movement that we're just like like, you you do you. Like, is that probably, again, overgeneralizing, but Yeah. Amongst

the brain. That's a red flag versus yellow flag. Right? Like, when I'm looking at movement pattern, you get a green check mark if I'm looking at this and saying this isn't going to affect anything that we're trying to do functionally. If I'm looking at something that's like, yeah, this could affect this, but it's not a it's not the top of priority, right, you get a yellow flag.

If I'm seeing something, I'm like, no, this this 100% is going to affect how you're gonna play the position, and it's a red flag. So, yeah, there's different levels in terms of both what the compensation is and the magnitude of the compensation, not to mention force. Right? The two the the most deadly thing we see is somebody who can create a lot of force but doesn't have a lot of stability. Right?

If you're a goaltender who is really fast and create all this force and you're really quick going side to side but you lack stability, you you get you you that's a recipe for disaster. So these are things that, you know, as much as we want to help professional goalies and collegiate goalies and these high level players, Rob and I both got into this to help kids. Right? We got into this because I wanted to prevent the next goalie from becoming me. Right?

All I wanted to do was play this game. All, like, all I wanna do now is go put my pads on and go play, but I can't play men's league because I spent the first twenty years of my life tearing my body apart. I want people to be able to play this game and enjoy this game and be able to then go enjoy life and not have to live with the consequences and the realities of injuries that quite frankly are kind of simple to resolve once you understand and can assess them.

All I wanted to do was play this game. All, like, all I wanna do now is go put my pads on and go play, but I can't play men's league because I spent the first twenty years of my life tearing my body apart. Right? I want people to be able to play this game and enjoy this game and be able to then go enjoy life and not have to live with the consequences and the realities of injuries that quite frankly are kind of simple to resolve once you understand and can assess them. It's the inability to assess these things that leads to the the lack of understanding, and it leads to the misdiagnosis.

And I think for us, if we could intervene at a younger age with these kids and teach kids from an early age some of these basic principles, then you could affect an entire generation of athletes in a positive way. And that's really what we're trying to do. I'm not like, we're not trying to become, you know, professional goaltending coach. Like, as much as that's fun and cool to work with professional athletes, the real purpose would be affecting the next generation and and being able to lead the goaltending world in a direction that takes us away from the inevitability and is, oh, yeah. You're a goalie.

You're gonna have hip surgery. The same way that, oh, you're a pitcher. Yeah. You're gonna have Tommy John. Like, at what point can we accept that there are actual solutions to this and start applying this in an everyday world?

And I think that's what our mission is. And if there's a frustration for Rob and I, it's been the lack of acceptance to that in the goaltending world. And that too many people are worried about, you know, the performance aspects and trying to chase, you know, speed and strength and all this other stuff, and nobody's looking at these underlying issues and addressing these things when they should be.

Are there

Or also too trying to find the corrective actions as well to that. Right? There's a whole piece here with the assessment, and, you know, some of the coaches we've talked to in the past are like, well, what if it shows I'm doing something wrong? And we're like, no. Our approach isn't that you're doing anything wrong.

We're every kid is there's gonna be differences, as Casey pointed out, with every kid. Right? And what we're trying to find is, alright. Let's make this respective kid the best and the healthiest athlete that they can be. Right?

That's really our mission at the end of the day.

Long term too. So are there are there generalities that apply as much as it's individualistic and in a perfect world, the assessment will unlock that and and show you where you need to focus to have that long, healthy life as a goaltender. Are there some general things we need to be doing differently that can be applied more broadly, or does it really are we in that that assessment is so crucial to understanding? Because as you said, as we've said, like, there's no one way to do this. Goalies are so unique in terms of how they play, maybe in part because they're so unique with the underlying biomechanics they bring.

Yeah. I mean, I would say the general the generalities are that you wanna create stability in the sagittal plane, and you wanna mobilize the frontal plane. Right? That's that's kind of the the guide forward. That's that's what your your compass should be pointed to.

That's really general. You know, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of training that could be applied to that principle. Right? But, again, if you're looking at, like, what what should I be doing off the ice to support this type of thing, you know, there's a whole off ice component where everything you're doing from a workout standpoint should be about building sagittal stability. You should be able to go to any functional trainer and say, I need sagittal stability, and they should know what that means.

if I could gift every single goaltender something, I would gift them sagittal stability and frontal plane mobility. And then that goaltender would come to me with the best possible vehicle to do what I'm gonna ask them to do and to meet the needs of goaltending.

Right? You should be able to build frontal plane mobility. Like, that's not those are that's language that any trainer should be able to acquire. And if you're asking for, like, the blueprint fundamental, if I could gift every single goaltender something, I would gift them sagittal stability and frontal plane mobility. And then that goaltender would come to me with the best possible vehicle to do what I'm gonna ask them to do and to meet the needs of goaltending.

Right? And so, like, there I look at, like, golf has an equation. Right? If you're a golfer, you wanna build your body to meet these needs. As a goaltender, you need sagittal stability and your frontal plane mobility.

Like, that's what you need, and those are the ingredients that you should be trying to build. Everything beyond that, it gets into that subjective nature, but that's the foundation of movement that I would be trying to build if I was a goaltender at any age.

Now onto the the assessment and the more specifics. And and because I think, like, the reality is as much as you're trying to help everyone at a young age, assessment is more likely to occur as they rise up the ranks. Hopefully, not too late.

Mhmm.

What does an assessment look like? What what like, how how long do you need to have them in in, you know, the sensors to sort of get the information you need to help them solve these problems. Because there's two parts of my brain. There's one that's going, like, why isn't every NHL team doing this with every goalie they draft? And then there's the other part that's like, is it too late?

Like, how do we make this, like you said, for every goalie that so that they can access it?

There's a couple levels of assessment that we have. You know, we started off with this. We we take we can take a body comp using a body composition scale just to kinda get an idea of structure. Then we can go on to we have a wireless functional motor screen So we can get basic movements there, right, to see, okay. This is how the body's constructed.

How is it moving? And we put those you know, we can put those pieces together to kinda get that initial lower level, if you like. Those are our two low levels of technology. And then the third one morphs into what Casey's talking about in the wild. So we can take a look at an athlete over those three things.

Some people you know, it's, some of the groups we've talked to in the past, one of the trainers would say, oh, I want the body comp. The other one says, well, I want the motion. And I'm like, okay. Well, shouldn't you two be talking to each other, right, to see if you have a body comp? And you go ahead and say, well, I corrected all the imbalances, you know, from a from a muscle perspective, but it's like, yeah, but they're still manifesting themselves in a movement pattern.

Right? So, you know, that's part of the, part of our assessment as well is to kinda say, hey, here's, here's something that this can be a good basic start, right, to to get a good look here. And then when you put all the pads on, because the equipment's gonna dictate what you have as well too. You know, kids oftentimes too when they come in and they say, oh, I've got new pants. Okay.

You're gonna move a little differently. Your muscles are gonna tire differently. You're gonna feel a little warmer. You know, I've got a new chest protector. Right?

So a number of those different things are gonna getting back to what Casey's talking about, the central nervous system, you know, it's running through saying, oh, what's this? What what am I supposed to be doing here? Oh, I'm doing this. Hold on. I gotta process this information now.

Right? So sometimes when the nervous system isn't mature, you know, that's when you see that kind of a learning curve pattern come in, you know, when you when you are getting new equipment and things. And you and what I see, and over times, is parents will say, oh, I'm gonna get these pads so they can grow into it. And you see this little kid trying to push these wide pads around. I'm like, oh god.

Okay. You know, you just see the the pads are kinda going up, and then they'll drop down. The legs will go out a little more to try to compensate for everything, and you're like, okay. This is gonna be a problem here. Or you see a a glove that's too heavy, but it's bought because it's bigger, and you see them, you know, trying to it looks like they're trying to pick up a 10 pound rock.

Right? Trying to move it. So, you know, those are some of the things here. We can we can kinda get down to the nitty gritty. And one of the things that we had looked at, we had partnered with some junior leagues a couple years back as well to do, you know, motion capture assessment on their players.

And, you know, we we ended up watching, like, 250 games over the course of the year just watching respective players that we'd capture data on. And, you know, we can get a a a decent read on some players for a fact. When we were testing out in one of the groups in the Midwest, we were doing our second level of technology. Evaluators came up to me and said, hey, what can you tell me about this kit? And I said, okay.

I said, let me take a look. And it was a skater. And they said, okay. They have trouble going to their right, can't make more than about a fifteen, eighteen foot pass, and they don't like contact. And they kinda looked at me and were like, wow.

Okay. You got that? Yeah. We kinda get that out of report because we've been doing this for quite some time. Or even with some of the lower level reports, we look at and we say, alright.

You know, you see a kid here and and look. Said, okay. You shoot right handed. Yes. I do.

Okay. So if the goalie is set up like this, your most of your shots go, you know, across your body. Correct? They're like, yeah. I said, you're doing that because your legs aren't strong enough to support your upper body right now.

And we saw that with our then we can see that out of our body count, right, with the way that it affects everything. And I said, so if I'm going to defend you, I'm just gonna push you to the side, and you're never going to get a good angle shot. You're you know, it's easy to take you out of your game right now. Right? So we have a good understanding of many of the sports that we're involved with with this.

And, you know, so that's been kind of the a little bit of the discovery for us too, you know, in that sense, in that, okay, if we are able to find this with players, and and one more anecdote we were talking about, it was a professional player that we had tested, and, you know, he came out and he was we said, you know, the skating test is getting very quick, and he was warming up for an insane amount of time. We're like, no, you'll be okay. It's not like, you know, we're not gonna put you through a a massive test here. And, you know, just chatting with him, and I said I looked and I said, let me see your story. He was a very successful player in college.

And I said, but, you know, you have a lot of injuries and you're young. You know? I said, you want one more year in the game, right, to retire on your own rules, and then but you still wanna be able to play with your kids when you're 40. Is that right? He goes, yeah.

That's pretty much my life. That's what I want. You know? So from that perspective, that's some of the other stuff that we, you know, we try to bring in. But to your to your point, Kevin, and I've talked to, you know, Steve Thompson about it as well, with respect to just the general sedentary nature of the kids today.

Right? They get up, they wake up, they go to school, they're sitting, they've got the, you know, screen posture as we call it. Right? They're doing that. They get in the car, you know, they finish school, they get in the car, they go home, they chill for a little bit, and let's say they drive an hour to practice, they get to practice, they're not getting there an hour before to warm up, they're getting there ten minutes before because everybody's scheduled, they don't really have time to stretch or do anything properly to warm up, They get on the ice.

What's the first drills? Two on o's, three on o's, move the puck around, get everything going. So the kid's sitting there moving all around, right, getting everything all stirred up, and then they finish late after practice. And one of the parents said, come on. We gotta go home.

We gotta go Right? So they're getting in the car, no real cool down, get in the car, lactic acid builds up again. They get home. Oh, I'm so tired. Boom.

Go to bed, and you just start the whole sequence again. You know? So there's inherently just a lot of daily processes in general. You know? And that's part of the thing that we're we're working to try to correct is not only during the hockey piece, but realize that, you know, it's like kinda taking a test, but you gotta study for the test and you gotta prepare for the test.

And that preparation for the test and studying for the test is what's done on the outside hours of the time that you're actually in on the ice in your equipment. Does that all make sense?

It it totally it it totally this all makes this all makes so much sense that the the other part of my brain is is like, what like, again, why why isn't everyone doing this? Like, you know, and and part of that may answer may be that this is, like, still a developing technology for you guys or a developing process. I know you like you said, you started just observationally. You know, what does this look like, or what do you hope it looks like? Or what could it look like, I guess, for teams that are like, hey.

Like, I'd like to know whether my goaltender is gonna be injured in three years and what I or or three months and what I can do to minimize those risks.

Yeah. And that's been the the difficult challenge with us. Hockey is a technologically challenged sport, shall we say. Right? Yeah.

It's it's

resist we're resistant to change for sure.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've tested, you know, at the at the highest levels, players at the highest levels. And, you know, it's funny in that, for example, I'm going to a baseball house training house later this week, and we've got a number of division one college athletes all lined up, ready to go, right, you know, from that perspective. So part of it's been the adopting of it.

Right? And, you know, our thing is is that we're different than some of the other technology out there. There's a lot of player tracking. There's a lot of player load. Right?

Right.

So, you know, peep a lot of the I guess, the trainers out there, we're still trying to get our message across, right, to say, hey. This is, you know, some of the data that we can collect. You know, we've talked to a couple groups, and we had mentioned a pelvic sensor. I wanna keep the names out of it. But, know, it's a high level group, and said, we wait a pelvic sensor.

Was like, do have a pelvic sensor? Wow. We're only using stuff on the foot. And to come back to kind of your, what we had spoke about earlier, you know, some of the the skating folks we've talked to, they're all worried about ankle bent. Right?

Ankle and knee bent. And we're like, okay. Comes from the pelvis. Yeah. But we wanna know about the ankle and the knee bent.

It's like, okay. That originates from the pelvis. That's a reaction to what's going on in the pelvis. Yeah. We wanna know about the ankle and knee bent.

Okay. You know? I mean, so part of it is just getting that change of thinking, you know, thinking coming around and getting there. So that's, you know, and but we we really are starting to make some great headway. We've got some great lineups coming up in the beginning of the year this year.

But I think, if you're still there, I'd like to chime in with respect to some of the central nervous system work that he's doing with some of the newer technology that he's, you know, he's got out in his area there.

Yeah. So obviously, there's this whole physical aspect that we've got into and there's this whole biomechanical piece to everything that we're looking at through assessment. The step that we've taken beyond the biomechanical is into the neuromechanics. Right? It's into like we're talking about how that nervous system is influencing the body.

We have a couple of different technologies that we've started to utilize that give us the ability to take deep deep level assessment of the nervous system. So, things that are really important relative to the nervous system for performance are things like brainwave activity and how your vital forces are and these other types of metrics that measure how prepared your nervous system is to perform or to react or to create speed, all these different things. So, again, we we've dealt with athletes in the past who maybe check the boxes biomechanically but still aren't translating. They're still not being able to learn at the rate that we want them to learn. And that's really what kind of kicked us into this neurological assessment.

And so now we're using technologies as part of the assessment not only to look at the functional movement screens and what's going on on the ice but also what's going on at the at the neurological level and what we're able to find at the neurological level are blockages in brainwave activity. One of the more alarming things that we're finding through research is the correlation of the brain getting stuck in a state of fight or flight. So, your brain is supposed to be able to move fluidly between the different stages of the nervous system and that movement between the different stages of the nervous system is supposed to is supposed to support your ability to do a host of different things and one of the features of your brain is fight or flight. What we're seeing in research is that our interaction with technology is driving the brain deeper into the state of fight or flight and it's actually removing the capacity for the brain to move freely into these other stages of the nervous system. And so when we have an athlete come in and then we do an assessment on them and we get the nervous system assessment and we can see that their brainwave is 85% delta, then, we know that their brain is stuck in a state of fight or flight.

That athlete's gonna struggle sleeping. They're gonna struggle recovering. They're gonna struggle focusing. That athlete is living in a state of fight or flight with the inability to remove themselves from it and this is all tied from a research standpoint back to our interaction with technology as I mentioned and so, you've got athletes like myself who grew up running through the woods and playing in rivers and climbing trees and that's great. We developed a an inherent and innate capacity to move between these different systems in the nervous system.

Well, what we're seeing with today's athletes are they aren't developing that same capacity in the nervous system level and they're getting stuck and living in this constant state of fight or flight and that has a lot of ramifications on the social, emotional, just the mental health, well-being side of it but there's also a component that ties back into performance and I've I've an athlete in front of me who is completely in a state of fight or flight. That athlete is not going to be able to translate the knowledge that I'm giving them and turn that into movement and furthermore, even if they can in that state, their body's not committing that to memory because they don't have the type of brainwave activation that is required for that to actually take place. And so, we've started looking at athletes not just from the biomechanical perspective, but also from the neuromechanics perspective to understand even more up upstream, the influences that are being had on this athlete and how we can influence those things and unlock this flow of energy from the nervous system and allow athletes to exist in a state of being calmer and more focused and that so that's that's kind of been an unlocking mechanism for us that we've just started to do as well.

Well, really touching on all aspects of human performance.

Trying to leave no stone unturned. Right? Trying to take objective measure in all states. So, now, we're taking objective measurement of the nervous system. Again, a functional movement, body composition, and biomechanical data at the highest level.

So, we're trying to create as much of this objective data so we can make good decisions and create the best type of blueprint and road map forward for an athlete. So, yeah, it's I think it's, you know, it's multifaceted. There's a lot of different elements to it, but that's that's also what is necessary if we really want to start to understand what's what's truly causing the things that we're seeing in goaltending.

Wow.

Yeah. We also do a nutritional and mental assessment as well too that's in the digital base. So we kinda really look to tie everything together just to make sure that athletes there. And as Casey mentioned about a blueprint, you know, every athlete that we work with gets their own individual blueprint that's delivered to them. And now it's up to the, you know, it's up to the respective kids at that point to continue the work that we've given them.

So I've got, like, my head is spinning a little bit. I'm gonna be honest with you. No PhDs here, but there's so much. I can't thank you guys enough for your time. Like, we've been at this for an hour, and I've taken up more than I said I would.

But I've learned so much. My question now is sort of, like, if somebody else I mean, we have a lot of goalie coaches right up to the NHL that listen to this podcast, Wants to learn more about this. How do they how do they go about what's the best way to get get in touch with you guys about what this is all about and learn more and and and hopefully bring it in to help more goalies stay healthy longer and and and, hey, we'll we'll give the skaters a chance.

K. Agree. Well, I think the best way is just to reach out via email, and that's SportsScienceSolutions@Gmail.com. K. And that's the best way, or you can go to our website, sportssciencesolutions.us.

And then Casey's number's there and my number's there, you know, and I'll be more than happy to, more than happy to chat. I think one of those goalie, chat rooms that we got into, I think that's how you discovered us there where, a number of goalie coaches were like, hey. We wanna talk more about this. So we're, you know, we're trying to put some trying to find something here to to put together just to, you know, get our get our message out there a little more, you know, hopefully a podcast or something like that, through, just a group where we can collectively share with everybody too, you know, what Because we're it definitely is next level. There's nothing out there like this, and it's it's funny you'll see, and it's and Casey and I often talk about it, you just see on social media, you know, just a number of things.

And people will say, oh, I I got this routine on, you know, off of this, you know, from this respective coach. And I said, okay. Do you have the same tissue structure? Do you have the say you know, are you built the same way? Is your are you is this really what's gonna be best for you?

You know? Do you

know that magazine, we quite often we present a lot of different things. Like, that's kinda what we do, try and find as many different voices and present that. And we always describe it as, hey. Like, we're not telling you what to do, but here are tools you can put in

your toolbox.

You decide which ones you wanna keep and which ones you wanna leave. I think what you guys are doing is identifying how everybody's toolbox is shaped.

Mhmm. Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So I've got yeah. So I listen. I can't thank you enough. I'm hoping this is the first of many conversations. You've got my you've piqued my interest in so many different ways, and I and this is a chance you know, I appreciate you guys taking this chance to sort of share what you're doing with me.

I'm glad we connected Rob through. It was one of The USA hockey chat groups. Mhmm. And and I I just think there's gonna your my hunch is you're gonna be hearing from a lot more goalies after this conversation after we publish it on the InGoal Radio Podcast. So thank you so much for your time, and, keep up the great work.

Kevin, it's been a pleasure. I really wanna thank you for having us on here. And, yeah, that was our that was our mission when I remember when Casey called me. He's like, hey. I have this golf software I think can help with goalie hips. I said, okay. Let's let's try it out. Right? I I just gotta bring up the first remember one of the first goalies we tested? Remember, Kate?

We had the little, like, Bluetooth, a little pigtail, and, the little little, Bluetooth was right there. We're like, alright. Whatever you do, do not hit that Bluetooth. That's gonna screw up all the data. It was like a little pigtail thing that came out with a USB connector.

We're like, you can't hit this without what you're doing. So it's it's been quite a quite a journey. But, Casey, you know, I'll I'll let you have whatever you wanna say here in closing. Feel free.

No. I appreciate it. Kevin, thank you for your time. I mean, I think for Rob and I, it's just, you know, the opportunity to to talk about this stuff is important. We really care about, you know, trying to to share this information and share what we've been able to learn because I think there's a lot of stuff here that could really positively shape, you know, the goaltending world moving forward.

Well and when you talk about wanting to just help young goalies, I know, obviously, anecdotally, I know as a goalie might like, every goalie knows what you're talking about in terms of not you know, knowing that one day you won't be able to do the thing you love because Mhmm. Of the way it's treated your body. But also having that the the the background in golf on the PGA teaching side, I know it's a passion on goaltending because comparatively, there are a whole lot more golfers and a whole lot more money to be made on the golf side than there is in goaltending. So this comes from the heart. I know, Casey.

So thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you, guys. Really appreciate it.

Absolutely. Hey. It's our our pleasure and look forward to more many more conversations.

Outro

K. I have to I have to make one admission here as I was listening to you guys talk. I didn't realize there's more space on the left side of my body. It like, the the rib cage than than there is on on the right. I always thought it would be the opposite.

Okay. So now here's a question for you, Daren. As he was doing that, as he was explaining that, did you find yourself trying to feel it in your breath?

Yes. Because I was listening to it while I was on the on the bike. And and I was like, how does this work? Because the heart is over there. I thought that would take up more space, and I was totally wrong.

So that

And when you when you do it, you can sort of feel it, can't you? Or maybe that maybe that's all in our head, but you start to I was doing it as he was talking. I'm like, oh my gosh. He's right. Like, I don't know if that's real or imagined, but, like, yeah, placebo effect, but 100%,

it's it's That had nothing to do with the real impact of the conversation except I was, like I said, going into the the interview, like, visualize your your body and your hips because how how is that possible? My heart's over here. But I guess, spleen

There's a whole bunch of other stuff

on the other on the other side.

It's pretty important too. Some of some of us may have lost one of the key ones over there to a slapshot years ago, the whole appendix. Maybe I've got more room on my right.

So now you're even. You're balanced.

Yeah. Exactly. I balanced it out.

That was fun. I I do think that that is going to make its way to National Hockey League teams. That that discussion that just that took place.

Yeah. And I'm like I said, like, when you look at what they're doing and you get a glimpse a little behind the scenes stuff at at their some of the things they've uncovered, to be honest with you, I'm kinda surprised it hasn't already. But, hey, it's a league that can be little slow during that.

Players, goalies, like, be able to look at that, the the the strength and conditioning coaches. That would be invaluable.

Well, even even even you know? And, like, I feel like we're just touching the tip of the iceberg here. Even the stuff about T pushes relative to butterfly drops. And I do that. Like, that hard hard kick out heel stop?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know

if you and I are generating enough velocity at at this age

to No. But I

do cause the sheer effect, Daren.

I try to be fast for that push out to try and get myself, like, engaged in in the rush that's coming down. Yeah. There's no way I'm gonna do it anymore. I'm gonna be less engaged. I I I I don't have to be asked twice.

Daren, Daren, let it come to you. Just sit back and let it come to you. K? And if anybody asks, as you say, listen. I'm letting it come.

I'm letting it come. You know what I do? And and I'm saving my hips.

Here's here's my new philosophy on on playing. I treat every rush like a a golf hole. I try and make a birdie on it or a par, but I don't wanna make a bogey. And so the the there's pressure in the zone. There's an opportunity.

I try to make the save on it, and I judge myself that way. And I and I play it to par and see what I am to par

throughout the throughout the game. Okay. So now now I gotta ask. Is it so we're talking, like, rushes, like, guys flying down the wing, like, the the audience of

the team practice? Chances against, like, every every zone

Every time it's in

the zone. Yeah.

Okay. When you're talking about pushing out hard and coming back with a rush, like, don't do that anymore, Daren. We sustain our creeps

and in that bit. It's it's just helping me try to keep it in perspective and then not letting one like, golf. You don't wanna let a bogey carry over into the next hole. So if I make a bogey and I allow a goal, not so great play.

See, we now we need to get Casey back on because he's a top PGA Yes. Instructor, and he gets into the you know, we talked about the neurology that, you know, the the sort of neuropsychological side of it and the neuromechanics as well as the biomechanics. So I didn't wanna ask him about my golf swing because I was afraid that if he ever saw that, he'd be he never talked to us again. So I'll leave it to you to take the golf conversation with him in the next episode.

As as lame of a golfer I am, it's still better than him messing around with my goaltending. And that was fun today. That was great.

It was good stuff. So thanks

to those guys with all that fun with all this. Yeah. And and those guys were were amazing. And I love the way they played off each other.

Yeah. It was good stuff. Great stuff. And like I said, we'll we'll we'll we'll try and follow-up on this. If you've got questions, we'll put the address to Sports Science Solutions in the show notes, but you can always reach out to us.

Let us know what you think of that conversation. I'm I'm really interested to hear people's interpretation of your discussion.

And I'm I'm like you said, Daren, I'm kinda expecting a few text messages from guys around the league for follow ups as well after this one. I don't know why you wouldn't wanna know more if you're a goalie director, goalie coach, goalie person in the NHL.

If you don't, there's something wrong. Right? Like, just from from basic curiosity.

Yeah. We're a slow adapting league when it comes to modern stuff. Let's be honest.

Well, somebody's gonna get ahead of the game on this. Great job. Thanks to everybody for taking part in in this conversation and being a great supporter of InGoal Radio, the podcast from The Hockey Shop to Vizual Edge, Stop It Goaltending U, and NHL Sense Arena. It's great privilege to be part of this journey of goaltending. We'll talk to you next time on InGoal Radio, the podcast presented by the Hockey Shop Source for Sports Langley at the hockeyshop.com.