InGoal Radio Episode 274 with John Stevenson

Intro

Got a question that I wanna throw at the guys today. Welcome to InGoal Radio, the podcast presented by The Hockey Shop, thehockeyshop.com, Source for Sports Langley. Plenty to get to as we really get into the 2024, 25 season, three quarters of the way there on the National Hockey League preseason front and already into the regular schedule on, the junior leagues and the college arena. We're knocking on the door. There's Kevin Woodley.

There's David Hutchison. They are together today. What is the massive event that brings you together?

You miss me.

Yep. I miss. Woody's my buddy. It's great to hang out from time to time.

It wasn't just to go over and see your son, play for the Vancouver Giants?

Okay. Maybe I watched the game last night. That's good. Watched the game last night. No.

Look. I'm lucky enough to get over here from time to time to watch Matthew play. We get over quite frequently to go film those fun gear segments over at the hockey shop. And when we're able to dovetail it with a podcast recording, it's way more fun to do it in person.

Do you get to The Hockey Shop a lot when you go over?

I'd say a fair bit. Maybe not every time, but one of the cool things about, well, like I said, we're really lucky that Matty plays in Vancouver because he could have been drafted by a team in Manitoba or something, which is great for hockey but hard for me to catch up with him on the ferry. And so very lucky that way. And then when the hockey shop moved to the new location, it happens to be just down the street from the Giants home rink. So, quite often, take Matty over to the rink.

Two and a half, three hours before the game was kind of standard. Now I've got time to kill, so I'll, hop down to the Hockey Shop and hang out with Cam for a bit.

And connect with your buddy Woodley.

And then the morning after, we can talk about the game and hang out and do podcast. That's kind of standard. Works good.

Woodley, do you do you turn into goalie coach at all?

No. I don't think.

No. He's funny when he comes to games because I have to remind him quite often the tickets that they give players' families are all in the same area. And last year, Woody would be sort of squirming in his seat over plays and, oh, I can't believe that happened. He turns into his NHL analyst mode and you're just like, Woody, Woody, shut up, Woody. Shut up.

Yeah. I would've I would've that defense would've been riding pine two periods ago and his parents are sitting right in front of us.

He's not like that this year. They've had a real good start to the year.

I'm And

he hasn't been to a game either.

I'm I'm I've mellowed too. So this is the problem with watching I I I watch everything through an NHL lens. Right? Like and and and then that's not a please don't take that as a, like, oh, high and mighty comment. It's just that's all I watch and have for twenty four years.

So it's really hard to sort of adjust your expectations and your filters to lower levels. You should see me with a 12 year olds, Daren.

You are not alone in that front. At least you're joking. At least you're having some fun with that. Others

need some pretty serious. Growing. Take it pretty seriously.

Gear

InGoal Radio Podcast, we'll offer up our Gear Segment, brought to you by the Hockey Shop Source for Sports Langley, the hockeyshop.com. The Bauer Vapor 90 glove, that's the 580 break. Cam will be, along to dissect that product. The NHL Sense Arena feature interview, will focus on a conversation with John Stevenson, the mental training sports performance coach. And the parent segment brought to you by Stop It Goaltending U.

The app is the first of a three part segment, discussing taking stats for your child. Before we get into the meat of the episode, we've got some news to tell everybody about. We we discussed, last week a couple of situations in and around the National Hockey League with players. So one of those was Aleksei Kolosov. He was holding out.

He's under contract by the Philadelphia Flyers, but wanted to play in the NHL or play in the KHL. The Flyers were saying, you you you're not gonna just tell us where you're gonna play, and you're under contract, so you gotta come over. And, well, somewhere between last week and this week, they've come to an agreement. I don't know whether he's gonna play in the NHL. I don't think that Daniel Briere was gonna move off that, but Alexei Kolosov has reported.

Yeah. And listen. The one thing think we touched on this last week, and if we didn't, shame on us. Like, there may be an element of just wanting to be closer to home. That's a part of this as well for him being from Russia and, like, hey.

Like, if I'm not gonna be in the NHL, then I wanna be in a comfortable environment. And whether that's fair or not, I think you have to allow for the fact that it's a pretty extreme cultural and personal change to come over here, and maybe you're not willing to do that, at certain levels. So Grant, give a little grace to Kolosov for for the the not being here originally, and we'll see what happens. But good for the flyers that he's here. Watch a little video of him in a practice and very little.

So, you know, couch it based on sample size, Daren. But, man, I really like the way he moves. Like, it's clear that they're they're pretty they believe in the kid and the kid's potential. And so now it's just a matter of finding a way to make him comfortable as he develops and and where that will be, we will see. But good on him for coming back and good on the Flyers for making that, that all work out at least in the short term.

We'll see where it goes.

I think the Flyers were sympathetic to the homesickness angle, but they also wanted him in a North American environment, North American rink to, just to facilitate that transition to the National Hockey League. That's a fine balance there.

It is. It's can you just imagine though as a parent having your early twenties child over in Russia playing hockey and and just how you would feel worried about them and and their their just the personal side of of things. I wonder if hockey could probably take a few lessons from a sport like baseball that's had kids moving from all over the world for many years and they get mired in a minor league system that is probably not as good to them as as the hockey minor leagues are. I wonder how they help those guys through it.

On the front of Jeremy Swayman, there's no movement there with the Boston Bruins, but a connection of sorts with Igor Shesterkin who's entering the final year of his contract. There's plenty of speculation that the the window to get a deal done is the start of the regular season. And after that, he's going to put off all talks. Where are we or what should we be looking at for a number with Igor Shesterkin?

Well, let's start with a caveat that I don't know. This is all based on reading the other reports and a lot of talk about his camp wanting that to be in the 12 range, like, to set a new market for number one goaltenders. And don't forget the difference here if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong, Daren, but Shesterkin is a UFA next summer. So this is a sign or I could walk type of of moment for the rangers, and that's pretty tough to do with a goaltender as good as him, that risk.

But this is like, to me, and if he gets signed before camp starts, then and he resets the market or not, that affects what Jeremy Swayman can ask for. Right? Because and so

I've been a firm believer that that that Swayman has all along been sitting there waiting to see what does to the market. And then he just automatically it's easy to slide in after that.

One so let's see. Does he reset the market into what degree this off season, like, now before game start in, like, a week and a half? Or do they not come to an agreement, and then you're sitting there going, well, that could happen next summer as an unrestricted free agent. So and at the end of the day, there's a reason that we're having this conversation, and that's that the goalie market has, for the most part, been suppressed relative to their peers. And the reasons for it are understandable.

I mean, are you going to spend that larger percentage of your cap on one player when that player increasingly spends an entire third of the season watching from the bench? Are you willing to commit that much money to one player at a time when the floor of his competitors, the the backups and the number threes, has never been higher? Like, I think the gap between even the stars and the next level has shrunk. And the fact that that next level is playing 25 to 30 games a season and we see the workload being backed off of the starters, I think all of these have played a role in suppressing what number one goaltenders make in the NHL. And then there's the volatility.

Right? Like, Sorokin sort of helped reset the market at eight and a half, and then Hellebuyck signed for eight and a half. And Sorokin wasn't even his team starter last year. So I understand why general managers are nervous, And yet, when we're dealing with the Swayman or a Shesterkin, two guys that because the other thing in my mind that shrunk a little bit is how many truly elite number ones do we have. And I put both of them, Shesterkin for sure in that category.

And, Swayman, the only question is, does he play the way he plays in a tandem role if he's the number one guy? So it's the only thing left for him to answer. It's a little tougher to make those decisions, those hardline decisions when you've got guys that are at the upper echelon, and I'm fascinated to see where this all shakes out.

If you were going to put a salary cap on team goaltending, So you're two goaltenders and assign one pot of money for that position. Where do you think most teams would would end up for the totality of their two net miners?

Well, I feel like this is something we're gonna the range is massive.

But will it fair if you assigned it to to across the National Hockey League? And I know some teams don't put as much in their role standing and other teams put put more in. If you were

go ahead. That's a fascinating question. Like, if you do it I I first heard you asking the question, what if we did it, yeah, league wide wide and and made it equivalent to a player's salary cap versus what's a team's internal salary cap for a goaltender. Those are two very different things. If there was a goaltenders union who could argue for a a salary cap for goaltenders, it would almost be beneficial since as Woody says, the market is kind of suppressed right now, artificially versus the other positions.

If you could say, no, you must spend $10,000,000 on goaltending or pick a number, That certainly would be interesting. But I guess it all depends where that got set because if the teams went in and said, no, it's gonna be 5,000,000, then you immediately suppress the market for goalies. It's gosh, that's a fascinating question.

I mean, I think essentially this question gets asked by the individual team. For sure. And and so what does the team set it? I mean, what's Washington spending on goaltending right now with Charlie Lindgren and Logan Thompson? To is it it's under $3,000,000. Right? Like, Charlie's at 1.3. I can't remember what Logan's in the final year. Is he still on his entry?

Like, they're spending almost nothing on goaltending. But at the end of the day, even if you find those guys and you have success with them, eventually, you have to pay them. Or I mean, I think and this is what Florida I mean, this is the reality of the Florida panthers having alongside the New Jersey devils, the biggest goaltending department in the National Hockey League. Building that was all predicated on not wanting to be ironically the team that has to go out and pay Sergei Bobrovsky, but wanting to be the team that the Columbus Blue Jackets were that when they lost them was comfortable they had three or four more guys coming behind him to take his spot for a fraction of the salary. And that's ultimately what you wanna build is the ability to sort of have this constant supply.

Vancouver had it last year with Arturs. Like, oh, man. Like, our number one's down. Our backup got hurt in the playoffs. We've got a number three we believe in.

Right? But even then, it's hard to maintain that on a year to year basis. So eventually, you end up paying. It's I think, Daren, your answer is probably, what would we say, like, 9,000,000? Like, look at Winnipeg.

They gave Connor Hellebuyck 8.5. So now regardless of whether their backup ends up being Kaapo Kahkonen and or Eric Comrie, both guys are a million dollars or less. Like, so for them, it's 9.5.

And they were not spending a penny more on their backups, which which is why they were never retaining Laurent Brossoit. So there's a team that once they sign Hellebuyck, the salary cap on their backup is basically just above league minimum. It has to be dumpable in the minor leagues. That's all they're gonna spend. So I think it's probably somewhere in that range.

You could do a tandem two guys at four and a half. Somewhere between 7 and $9,000,000 is probably where most teams would like to spend on goaltending at this point. And that's probably all gonna change with and with and with Linus Ullmark, an unrestricted free agent next summer too.

Marvelous stuff. Fascinating the way you guys are able to, bounce it around and come to a consensus and a real, ballpark, figure for a really difficult situation when you're trying to nail down goaltending salaries, if you were going to really lock it into the position. Some league news to tell you about. Aaron Dell, has signed a contract.

And no surprises with the American Hockey League San Jose Sharks version. Right? Like, this is good news for hockey fans because I don't know that anybody has a better setup than Aaron Dell when he's in the San Jose Sharks organization. Right? Like, the the stuff that he does with Brian's is just killer.

So Anywhere, really.

Yeah. I mean, he's always has good setups, and he's such a good guy. And I think he's a really good goalie. And so the sharks get a little bit of depth by bringing him back into the organization, and the rest of us get to marvel at what's next from Aaron Dell and the crew over at Bryant's because they always turn out sick stuff. So win win for the goaltending union.

Should also mention Adin Hill switched to the Brian pads, for this training camp. He was, back and forth with True over the course of the summer, but, something that came about with that was, he just loves the Brian's glove. And we discussed mismatched sets the last few weeks. He he did tell me, that, even if he goes back to the trues at some point, the True pads, he's going to use the Brian's glove for for the rest of the year. It's it it was almost a fluke or an accident.

They discovered the Brian's Glove, but they sent it to him, along with the pads, and and there he is. He's he's gonna check out, and and is a Brian's Glove user from now on.

Yeah. Just when we were saying there aren't many guys who go with the mix match sets, they're just coming up more and more in other places. It's funny. We tried the, original Brian's genetic a long time ago, and it was one of the nicest gloves. It was the nicest glove I've ever used.

It was incredible. So I can I can see him going to that because the comfort in your gear is so important and yet isn't it interesting that at a time when you've got all this ability to customize the gear that you have from even people right off the shelf going into CCM at the Hockey Shop, the options that you now have from all these companies to dial in the gear you want to completely customize the graphic you want and yet guys are still finding that they wanna go from company to company to to get the the right fit and feel for them in different pieces of gear? Now it would seem more than ever just as we were saying the other day, it doesn't happen very often.

Well, it's funny because it reminds me a little bit of Jake Allen. Right? Like when he went to Montreal, he ended up in the True gear, but was never, you know, and there was some speculation that he would end up head to toe. But from my conversations with him, he was never getting out of that Brian's glove and he never did. And now he's back in Brian's head to toe.

And it is kind of fascinating to see how it I mean, to me, all goes back. I thought Joey Daccord, like, let's go back to, you know, the podcast from a couple weeks ago. I thought he summed that up brilliantly. Like, just the reality for these guys of all the gear they get to try and you're gonna find individual little items and goes back to that Corey Schneider mindset. Hey, you're always gonna get paid more to stop pucks by wearing something you're comfortable and performing well in then you are gonna get in terms of getting a head to toe contract from one specific company for wearing their stuff.

And so I think a lot of guys are maybe I don't wanna say keeping that in mind more, but it is interesting that at a time when you can sort of, you know, get so many different options built for you by one company, there are still enough unique feel elements from brand to brand that, you know, there's just something about that glove that the other company can't build to match for him.

Hayden said he hadn't worn Brian's since he was a young teenager, but the gloves came with the pads in the course of the summer. He put it on at the end of a workout, and the first three saves are right in the pocket, and it felt glorious. And he said, well, that that's good. And I tried it a few more times, and and now it's, with him for the rest of the season whether he, goes back to the true pads or not. Devin Cooley has, opened some eyes, both on the ice and off the ice, and this is a fun journey that he's on.

Yeah. You know, I mean, Devin Cooley in a Canadian market, we shouldn't be surprised. Like, he the his interviews are much like his podcast appearance with us at the end of last season with San Jose. They are refreshing. They are entertaining.

They are candid. They are open. Like, he's an open book. He's got a lot of passion. He's a really thoughtful goaltender.

And so it shouldn't be any surprise that the same energy and the way his interview with us was sort of, like, a lot of people loved him. And that's happened in Calgary. A couple of real, you know, candid open interviews that, a lot of people in Calgary have quickly fallen for this goaltender regardless of where he ends up. I'd encourage people to go seek it out. Frankly, one of them where he really dug into how his game has evolved, again, really insightful as well as open, and it really was just like a six minute version of our podcast.

And so if you have an opportunity for all the all the recent Devin Cooley fans in Calgary that have converted, go back and listen to the full episode that we had with him this summer because it really was one of the best ones we've had, because of all those same elements. Just so energetic, enthusiastic, and open about his game and the game and the passion he has for both.

And I would just underline that a lot of people will have seen some of the quotes that are so refreshing to see from Devin Cooley. The it all doesn't matter. We're all gonna die sometime and, the lighthearted nature of things. Understand that there's some great goaltending content in that stuff that Kevin was just mentioning, that recent six minute piece that was on social, his podcast with us. He dives right into the fact that you know, I was working mentions in this one.

Was working with Thomas Speer in San Jose and trying to wrap stuff out and talking about that process of transitioning stuff in practice until it becomes something that you just automatically use in a game. The things that we all go through, but NHL goalies so rarely talk about, as Kevin says, so candidly. So there really is a lot of technical stuff there. There's a lot of mental stuff that derives specifically from the game, and it's not just pure entertainment. Interesting quotes, although he's great with that too.

Yeah. And I had a chance to talk with him, actually. I watched, he played the third period, out in Abbotsford here against the Canucks in the preseason, and looked really good doing it and talked with them afterwards. And and it was kinda funny because it was the next day that he had that second interview back in Calgary that has everybody talking again and a lot of the same elements. He knows what he's supposed to be doing, and this comes through in his pro ProReads with us from last year.

Knows what he's supposed to be doing, And there are times, though, where he gets into a game and if he's thinking about it, whether it's his technique or his biomechanics, how he's holding his body, you know, not dropping his butt. If he starts to think about that too much in a game, he stops playing the game. And to the point where you can be thinking about, I gotta do this. I gotta do that. I gotta oh, wow.

There's two pucks have gone in. And so that balance between improving and getting better and training and then just going out and playing, and it's something he's going through right now on a daily basis with the Calgary flames. And, again, it's we all go through it. All goalies go through it, but his willingness to talk about it is part of what's so refreshing.

Bit of a spotlight on the Calgary Flame net mining, position right now. An added, emphasis. So with Devin Cooley's arrival and people getting to know him, through the interviews, but, they they've got some decisions to make there, and and they're going to be working out the playing time as they go along.

Yeah. Because they got three I mean, they're obviously a team that's in the midst of a I don't know if they've called it a rebuild, but that's what it looks like from the outside and obviously parted ways with Jacob Markstrom, you know, their top defenseman last year. Well, three of their main defenseman last year in Nikita Zadorov, Chris Tanev, and then the gentleman that was traded to you, Noah Hanifin and the Vegas Golden Knights. So that's three big names gone. They're obviously got a youth movement going, and that includes the goaltenders, Dustin Wolf, Dan Vladar, who shut down early last year to have the hip surgery and by all accounts feels great.

We've talked about that before, how it can be like quite freeing physically to to get that fixed. No more limitations in his movement. And I think people

forget, Dan Vladar gave them a lot of good games in the past and had some really good stretches and solid performances. So they still really believe there's a there's a there's a good goalie there. And then Devin Cooley, and so you gotta make a decision. I think contract wise, Vladar stays for sure. I think they want Wolf in the NHL.

And so what does that mean? It means you might have to risk because Cooley is still working on these things, and there is a little bit of projects too harsh a label. People take that the wrong way, but they're they want him to get a ton of reps, and that might be in the American Hockey League. And, of course, he requires waivers, so you risk losing him if you send him down. There's a lot of teams that are gonna be facing that decision in the coming week.

Do you think a goaltender will be claimed before the middle of October? And I'll I'll put it in the middle of October because it allows some teams to to start the season and and work their way through a couple of decisions. But with the way the goaltending is set up across the National Hockey League, does anybody is anybody scouring the waiver wire right now where you believe that trying to sneak a goalie through will cost a team?

Well, I mean, I can tell you, I believe the Vancouver Canucks had a list of guys likely to end up on waivers that they would have considered picking with Demko not set to start the season or or at least questions about whether he'll be ready at the start of the season until they got Kevin Lankinen in and solve that problem. I think a large part of it depends on how many injuries we have between now and mid October as these guys are being sent down, and we've already got one. Right? So John Gibson, had his appendix removed, appendicitis. The ducks put a three to six week timeline on his return.

And I would suggest that at three weeks, maybe they don't. But at six, because don't forget they lost, Thomas Hodges, to, I believe, a hip injury for the season, at Olympic qualifying tournament in August. And so they were another team that was linked to Kevin Lankinen, and they, you know, and and so again, they may have a need in the short term. The reality of waivers, if you pick a guy, you can't just pick him and put him in your minor league. You have to keep him in the NHL.

So that's what matters. And most teams went into the season or go into training camp with their tandems pretty much set. Well, if Gibson's out six weeks, maybe they take a guy for short term. If it's only three weeks, maybe not. But before these guys get sent down, how many more injuries do we see around the league?

Are there any significant enough that a team says we absolutely need to get a guy off waivers? And it's why if you really are worried about sending your guy down, this is a real catch 22 because you wanna give him reps in the preseason, but the easiest way to get him down is to do it before everybody else has a need at the NHL level, before those injuries can happen. I'll remember I I'll never forget the year the Leafs lost two on waivers right before the start of the season, like that final day where everybody sends everyone down. And everyone was like, I said, oh, the Leafs are being punished because they, you know, they they signed two really good goalies for the American Hockey League team, and they lose both of them on waivers. And now their depth have been depths decimated.

And that it's not fair, and they're just, you know, being targeted because, of course, poor Leafs nation. How about if you thought you had any type of risk of losing your guys, you just demoted them earlier? They waited till the last day. There were multiple injuries on the final weekend of the preseason. They lost both guys.

If they'd sent them down on the Thursday of the week before, they don't lose either one of them. So if you're really worried about it, you gotta you gotta take that shot and send them down early. That's my opinion, and it it sucks because guys like Devin Cooley wanna play longer in the NHL in the preseason to get more chances, but it's the reality. And already with the Gibson news, maybe you've waited too late. Maybe that'll have teams waiting longer because they wanna be they wanna send their guy down on the day when everybody sends their guy down and hope that it's not their guy that gets picked, but, there's a risk inherently involved in waiting.

That's a cold management thing to say, and and and I'm sure you're right, Woody. But waivers are there in a way to protect the more veteran players, the guys who put their time in in the league and they're a little bit older, and it's there as a as a second chance for them in a sense so that if somebody does need them instead of them getting buried in the minors when they've sort maybe earned deserve a chance somewhere.

Yeah. It's an opportunity.

You know? So it's unfortunate. I doubt that the players union ever negotiates these bargaining agreements thinking much about the guys at the lower end of the spectrum there. Although I wonder if it might change in time as those middle guys start getting squeezed out of the game because of salary cap reasons. It'd be interesting if they'd ever ask for there to be a you can't send a guy down until this date if they're waiver eligible or something to give them another opportunity.

But it's an interesting question you ask about whether somebody will get claim because we do recognize that need for somebody. Many teams now have loaded up with and also as Woody was talking about earlier, just, you know, the the quality of goal tending in the league in general. There are a lot of situations as we look across the league of guys who will get sent down presumably that have experience that could come and play for another team. So there's more names there, I think, than ever. So it's it's an interesting situation.

Well, and I think so maybe the maybe the question is, and this one I'll say yes to as soon as I ask it. And maybe the bigger question isn't, will there be, but how many carrying three goaltenders? Because I think there are teams that have guys primed to be picked off of these waiver lists that will carry three goaltenders this year to avoid it. You know, Buffalo with Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen and Devon Levi and James Reimer. Detroit, they carried three last year for a while.

Detroit carried three last year for a while, and they've got four this year with NHL experience. With Cam Talbot, Ville Husso, Alex Lyon, and Jack Campbell. Winnipeg. Obviously, we talked about Hellebuyck, Kaapo Kahkonen, and Eric Comrie. I know a lot of people look at Eric Comrie's raw numbers last year and say he's not getting claimed, but the reality is he had an expected save percentage of eight fifty eight, not just the lowest in the league by a mile, but lowest is that I can remember seeing and outperformed it by a decent clip.

And so I I actually believe I believe he's in what's that?

He's been claiming before on waivers.

Yeah. Exactly.

People have grabbed him

Yeah. And he's, and he's, you know, he's a guy that posted a nine twenty with Winnipeg in the last time he was there. Chris Driedger. If Florida keeps Sergei Bobrovsky and Spencer Knight, Chris Driedger, I believe he's an NHL goal. Absolutely.

There's another guy that teams might might take, and there's a lot around the league like that. So, I think for sure, we're gonna see and and this is something we wouldn't have said even two, three years ago. We're gonna see multiple teams keep three goalies again through the first month of this season at least.

And just picking up on Hutch's point, if you do pick up somebody off waivers, they have to stay on your NHL roster. So you have to believe that whoever you're grabbing is better than your backup because you might have to put your backup who is then third string on waivers, and you might lose them. So there's there's a it it starts a bit of a Cascade.

Which which is why if you send them down early because teams have set their tandems. Right? They're probably not We're halfway through camp.

Do you think there'll be a few guys put on waivers now in the next couple of days as we record this?

I I don't know with with Anaheim and Gibson right now. Is there a is there a worry about putting somebody on waivers today?

Yeah. And that that's the thing. If Gibson wasn't hurt, I absolutely think Daren teams would start that. But now they're like, oh, man. Like, maybe by going first, our guy becomes the guy that Anaheim claims rather than waiting to see.

Because like, let me give you a hypothetical. And I don't know what's going on in Anaheim, maybe Gibson is only three weeks, and maybe they don't they're maybe they're not even looking. But the hypothetical would be, let's say if it's Devin Cooley, and Anaheim's like, okay. They put Cooley on early. We prefer James Reimer.

These are just, like, pie in the sky, top of my head names amongst the guys in my but we're not sure if James Reimer's gonna be put on waivers before the start of the season because Buffalo carried three last year. We better grab Cooley now. And so that's the type of dance you do. And and, again, I think the fact that Gibson is out already changes the math. Otherwise, I do think we'd see teams putting guys on waivers, maybe not this weekend, but certainly, like, early next week because, middle of next week or late next week is when a lot of American Hockey League camp starts, so it's not like they don't have anywhere to go.

They'll be right back into action pretty quickly.

And you're getting to the point where your regulars are gonna want the reps in the exhibition games too.

Three goaltenders. You've been saying it for forever. But whether it's a practice goaltender, or three goaltenders giving yourself, an ability to massage the workload.

Well, a practice goaltender for sure gives you that opportunity. Three experienced guys probably a little uncomfortable trying to

share the net. Because nobody wants to be the guy sharing.

And as my buddy Nick Kipreos always says, the third guy is just in the way of the drills. Always just in the way of the drills. Stay out of the way.

Really? Was he not going to the net after he took a shot? Was he peeling into the corner and bumping into the third goalie? That's what I'd say to Nick if I was with him.

He strikes me as a stop at the net guy.

Is that would there where where do you stand when you're the third goalie? Are you in the neutral zone? Are you in the corner?

You I most of them just stand either by a coach along the wall or at the back of the line of the nearest line for the drill for the forward. Mhmm.

I I I always had the same question as a goalie coach. Where do I where do I stand so that the rebounds off the post aren't cranking me in the head? Yes. I'd go stand in the line with the players sometime because most of them are taller than me, and I just hide behind them.

I stand in the neutral zone away and wait for somebody to wave to me to come in. I don't wanna be anywhere near any any of the action, but then I end up in the way of flow drills. I don't don't think there's a real answer to that. Hence, the issue of of carrying three goaltenders as opposed to a practice goaltender.

If I was just putting my parent hat on, we don't need to get into this too too much really, but you're starting to see this at lower levels now because at least in Canada, we have this problem where a number of leagues have broken away from Hockey Canada. And as a result, they can't use goaltenders in AP situations that are with Hockey Canada leagues. And so for example, the BCHL broke away last year from Hockey Canada. They started carrying three goaltenders on every team because they and they were allowed to have an extra roster spot for a third goaltender because they couldn't just call somebody up. Well, now you've got minor hockey leagues that are breaking away.

Similar situation. Junior B leagues, you're seeing three goaltenders. All these changes in the structure of hockey are creating more three goalie systems, which I think for a lot of parents that are paying a lot of money for hockey are probably a little bit frustrated.

What do you know? Something that has to do with Hockey Canada is screwing up goaltending. I don't think that's their fault in that situation. But

Yeah. I'm giving them a pass on on on that front.

Well, let's not get me started on how I think the CHL is one of the biggest detriments to the development of Canadian goaltenders. We'll save that one for another day.

No. I'm just gonna leave the room for that conversation.

Can you, yeah. That that puts, Hutch in a in a very interesting position. So we'll put, one camera on Woody and then in a small box in the corner, an isolated camera on Hutch and just watch the squirm.

I'll I'll just be out in the hot tub while you guys have this conversation.

I'll I'll be out there, hanging out with you. Woody, just, let us know when you're done. Let's get the foundation of InGoal Radio Podcast, some of our great segments, starting with the gear segment, brought to you by The Hockey Shop Source for Sports Langley, The Hockey Shop dot com, Do you think around the Bauer Vapor 90 glove with a 580 break? How are things going at The Hockey Shop?

Well, things are busy at The Hockey Shop, but that doesn't mean they don't have time and extra staff on hand to help you with your questions. We've had a number of emails come into InGoal in the past week or so from goalies wondering about sizing and fitting, what gear should they be wearing. I've had a had goalies send me images of where their knees are sitting on the stacks, and they're not sure if they're ready to move up to a bigger pad. And in one case, talking them out of moving up to a bigger pad because it would restrict their mobility and their movement and ended up being the right decision. And all of these things are answers you will get from Cam and his staff who I liaised with on the one I helped with myself because these are all goalies that play the position.

You're not walking into your local sporting goods store and some guy who's never been a goalie trying to find you something you're looking for. Everybody in the goalie department at The Hockey Shop Source for Sports in Langley plays the position and plays it with passion, understands not just the equipment, but how it suits your game. That includes glove brakes, variations like we're gonna get into with the with the Bauer Vapor 90 and the fact that closes like a five eighty. What are the other equivalents in other brands? They know those answers, but they also know how it feels on your hand, how it closes on your hand.

Everyone in that department is able to help you. It's a busy time of year because a lot of kids are sort of needing new gear at the last minute, finding out as they get on the ice and and onto new teams, new colors, new new positions, new opportunities, maybe the stuff doesn't fit. Maybe, I've had a few of these, BC goalies graduating to the BCHL. Bruises, the shots are harder. They're feeling more pucks.

They need a little they need an option with some more sort of that what they used to call the old Vaughn Pro Beef customization in the arms. The guys at the hockey shop will help you out. That's where I sent the BCHL goalies to the hockey shop to get the answers on gear that will work for them and their game. And I guess the new Vapor 90 is one of those options. Let's get Cam to fill us in on how you can get it off the rack now, not something that was ever offered before.

Welcome back to The Hockey Shop Source for Sports, Goalie, Utopia, Bauer, Vapor ninety, 580 break. We've talked about it before, but this one's special. Cam, walk me through this glove and why it's special.

There's a stock on the wall. Anybody can buy it anytime.

I can just walk over amidst I mean, there's so many gloves. How do I find it? But I just find the Bauer section, I look for this?

Well, I mean, you come, you know. I'd say worse

to talk to you. Why not? Because I talk to you enough.

Well, you wouldn't be able to find the glove and you'd be lost.

Okay. Well, okay. If people were to ask why do I want this? Why is it special that you have this?

Alright. So we saw this come out last year, and it was more of a whole custom thing with the Bauer Vapor 90. Again, getting that 580 break in a Bauer glove, which was a big deal. It was a kind of like a secret glove that had been around for a little while. James Reimer had one?

Reimer had his his after being inspired by long ago.

That's right. Wearing his CCM five eighty break.

There we go.

We gotta sign one of those somewhere in the InGoal offices.

Perfect. History aside He's jealous. Yes. I am. History aside, Bauer has created a stock all white one for the wall that matches the stock Hyperlite two graphic.

Again, just as easy as showing up in the store. Exact same prices as regular stock Hyperlite 2 off the off the wall. Pick it up. Bake it. Definitely recommend baking them, and you're on your way.

And you have yourself a 580 single tee.

So the reason And a Bauer. The reason we're talking about this today is because up until this point, you either it had to be part like

Custom ordered.

Right.

Or Or we would happen to have our own stock that we custom ordered Right. On the wall, which is now out. So we have these.

So if you're looking for a new glove this year, you've always wanted a five eighty, you can come in here and get the Bauer Vapor 90 break off the wall. No need to custom order. Game ready, pal. I did I did like the grip in the fingers.

Yes. So that same Hyperlite 2 Vapor Grip inside the finger stalls. Same idea. When your hand starts to get a little greasy, everything gets a little sweaty in there, you get that extra grip.

So a break that used to be custom is no longer custom, but now also on the wall, can mix and match it with your Hyperlite too, and you don't have to custom order a wait time. The season's starting soon if you need a new mitt. This or other options, make sure you talk to Cam or his crew here at The Hockey Shop Source for Sports. Cam, if they've got questions about this glove or other options like it.

Yes. (604) 589-8299 or 1-800-567-7790. Give me a call or give any of the guys a call. You know, let's talk about custom warnings. Say you want a single tee.

Say you want a thicker palm. Things like that. All still available. You can check it out at the hockeyshop.com.

Love that you can get that without custom ordering it now.

Well, yeah. I mean, let's let's be honest. It wasn't that long ago. You you couldn't even custom order it. You had to be in the NHL to get it.

Right? So, you know, we talk about mixing and matching gloves. Right? That goes back to the James Reimer playing with Roberto Luongo and Luongo's five eighty CCM glove that he wore, liking the way it closed, and getting Bauer to build one for him. And for the longest time, you really did have to be at the NHL level to get it or at least playing pro.

Then they put it on the customizer, and now, as Cam explained, you can just walk into the hockey shop, Even guys like you and me, Daren, can walk in there and get our Vapor ninety five eighty style break Bauer glove. This is the beauty of companies bringing goalies what they want.

And going to the hockey shop, you can try on 12 different gloves, all the different manufacturers, and all the different brakes, and all the different models in your competitive area and pick the best one. It it's all right there for you.

And so much so, we're not just saying this. We've had all sorts of readers come from all over the world and visit the hockey shop and spend half a day trying on gloves and other bits of gear, it really is the candy store of goaltending.

If you could customize one piece of equipment, if CCM or Bauer came to you and said, what piece of equipment do you want to your specs dialed in absolutely? Which would it be? Pads, blocker, glove, skates, upper body. What what would you pick?

Oh, this is a tough one.

It's a it's a really tough one. It depends where you're going with this, but my gut answer when you started saying that was, I just really like to try that new CCM access mask so that I can get the full custom face, which I've never had before. But then I started thinking about what am I spending hours and hours and hours standing on every day in that skate. So then I think it would be full custom with the skates for sure. But I know that's not really what you're talking about there, Daren.

The the skates have been available for so long and you're really just saying make them for me, which is great. So I feel it would be my glove, but I can't imagine that I could tell you what they are. I'd have to be that pro guy that gets a dozen gloves and goes back and forth with every option. And that's the tough thing for people. Right?

And that's maybe why you need a guy like Cam to talk to because, you know, we spend $700 on a glove and that's our glove for the season. We can't go back and say, well, how about you make me another one except you make this little change to it? I would be a pro. What a dream. I think

I was originally thinking chest protector. I do think chesties are one of the most personalized, like, pieces of equipment. Like, the how you wear it, how you want it to feel, whether you're willing to feel shot. I'm soft. Right?

Like, I remember coming in in my mid thirties learning the position, the guys that were wearing Vaughn at the time, like, they accepted bruises. Henrik Lundqvist, like, accepted like, that that was okay to feel pucks like that.

Daren Millard and David Hutchison in 1980.

I I Yes. Bruises. I p one. Reebok P1 is the first chest protector I used, and that was the sort of standard that I got used to. Like, I didn't feel pucks in it.

And so I'm way too soft to feel pucks. So not that you are in a Vaughn now, but, I mean, things have changed. But, like, there was that, you know, that balance between flexibility and mobility and protection. And so I think I think chesties are one of the most customized pieces there is. But the more I think about it, having had skates built for my foot and then trying to just heat mold something off the rack and the difference in how they feel and how my feet feel after a couple hours in them, I think I'm probably going skates.

Neither one of you guys mentioned pads, and I wouldn't have went pads. I was I was going along the line of glove first and then skates, but, pads get the most attention. And I'm I'm surprised that none of us went there, but it kinda makes sense.

It's a little bit like NHL goalies. Like, there's so many available and maybe one has the absolute best of every feature, but you know the one a couple downs from that down from that. You know the one that was made a few years ago where the second price point option still has some great features to it and it's still a real good pad. Know what I mean? Whereas if that glove doesn't feel quite right for me or if I'm taking stingers in the palm all practice long and that's making it a miserable experience, that makes a big difference for me or or the arms, Woody.

But but every pad is a good serviceable pad, think. That's why quite quite often in those gear segments, they're talking about the second price point ones and it's a great way for a family to save some money if they want to invest it elsewhere.

See, the one of the reasons I didn't go glove is because there are so many options you can get without having to order custom now that I feel like I can find a glove that I like how it closes. I like how it tur you know, turco grips the stick, and I like all those helmets without having to go full custom. And the same answer goes for the mask. If you had asked me this ten years ago, I would have said mask because not enough companies were making enough sizes, and a lot of the most popular masks that were considered the safest weren't necessarily the safest on me because they didn't fit my head, my odd shaped head. And so now my hesitation to join Hutch in saying the custom three d printed liner of CCM is because I know that a medium CCM fits me so well.

I'm not necessarily sure I need the custom liner. It wasn't that long ago that you didn't have a small, medium, large option, that you didn't have all these options in masks that could fit so many different head shapes, and you would have needed custom. So it's it's amazing. Again, like, I think a lot of the companies deserve a lot of credit, Bauer included. Right?

Like, for the longest time, the nine sixty one was just one size. You know, a lot of goalies don't remember that. They're not old like us, but there weren't different size options. And so if it didn't fit you, it didn't fit you. And that's why we had guys right up to the NHL with the bottom of their mask.

You know? Corey Crawford losing having teeth chipped every year because the mask that was the safest in junior that he wore didn't actually fit him properly. Now we have options for everyone to make sure they have a fit that, will not only fit their head, but courtesy of that, just be safer on it.

I suspect Woody's right, but for me, I just want to know what it's like. Like, I haven't tried the custom mask, so I don't know that I can answer that. But but we do know that there's guys who have access to custom masks that are just going off the shelf because they do fit so well. So so Woody is is right there, but I still wanna try one.

I wonder what other questions I didn't ask Woody ten years ago that I should have asked. Wonder what I should ask him now that I'm gonna regret in ten years that I didn't ask him.

Well, I mean, let's be honest. They're most Careful it

might take ten years to get an answer.

Ten ten For him

to finish the answer.

Yeah. I gotta I I I have trouble enough remember what happened ten days ago, Daren, so I sure as hell can't tell you what the best questions would have been ten years ago.

Parent Playbook

Slide over to our parent segment brought to you by Stop It Goaltending U the app. We're starting the first of a three part series, Hutch.

We are. We're gonna talk a little bit to the people that love to take stats in their kids games, and I got a long lot of stuff to talk about. But before I do, Woody should probably tell us a little bit about Stop It You.

Well, I mean, I could say the best part about Stop It Goaltending U is the fact that you get ingoalmag.com, but that would be not doing good service to how good Stop It Goaltending the app is. So, yes, you do get full access to an InGoal premium subscription when you subscribe to Stop It Goaltending U. The app, that's the best of both worlds, but you also get their weekly updates. Five every week daily primers, quick one minute videos that will help you become a better goaltender, help you sort of dial in your focus on what you're working on that week. Last week's was personal integrity.

You get quick videos. It could be anything on technical, how to place your pads and stick to steer a rebound into the corner a couple weeks ago, a glove break in, how to make sure your pocket we talked about all the glove fit, how to make sure your pocket's snagging pucks based on how you store your glove between skates. And then here's one. Did Joey Daccord a couple weeks ago that talked about journaling and using a journal? I know we He did.

We've had a lot of goalies talk about it. Well, they've got a journaling program at Stop It Goaltending U, the app, where you can download because a lot of us say, hey. Journal, but we don't really know how. It helps bring focus to the things you're looking at and recording on a daily basis. You can download the PDF off the Stop It Goaltending U app and participate in a very I say rigid, not too structured, but it helps guide your your journaling practice, and you'll become a better goaltender from it.

So Stop It Goaltending U, the app. It'll help you become a better goaltender in so many different ways. And now you get InGoal Magazine, ingoalmag.com premium subscription with it, the best of both worlds in goaltender.

Love it. Daren, if a goaltender faces five shots in a period and one of them goes in, does it mean he had a bad period?

Depends on the goal.

If he faced 20 shots in a game and one went in, that's a nine fifty save percentage. Is that automatically a good game?

That's a good automatically a good game. Well, not really.

Depends on the Right? What if three went in, then it's an .850. Is that a bad game?

Yeah. Well, the the stats say you're below average.

Do you believe that? No. Okay. Okay. Now No.

Let me give you another one. There's a goalie at one end of the ice, and I'm keeping the numbers small and easy to calculate because Woody wants to keep up with the math here. If a goalie at one end of the ice faces eight shots and one of them gets by him, that's just an .875. But but what if he was great with his rebound control? Maybe one went to the gut and he trapped it perfectly.

Maybe a couple of them hit him right in the pocket of the glove, nice and clean, stopped the play. Now there's a guy at the other end

That never happened.

Never happened, by the way.

But just keep it keep up with my math here, Woody. Now there's a guy at the other end, and maybe he faces almost the exact same shots, but he doesn't catch him cleanly. Couple of rebounds pop out. One on the chest bounces out. So he's faced the same number of shots before the rebounds.

And look, good goaltender makes the saves on the rebounds, and now he stopped nine out of 10 instead of seven out of eight. He's got a 900. Is he having a better game?

Well, the stats would say yes, but in reality, the eye test would say no.

Yeah. It's the old eye test. Right? It's Yeah. It's not telling the whole story, and it's not telling you about your game and and how it went.

And and, you know, it could even be some of those rebounds. Maybe the team just cleared them. You know, lots of things. Like, every game is not the same, and and the reason I'm talking about this today is more and more things popping up beginning of season, parents asking online, what's a good app to use to track shots on goal for my son or daughter? And I just wanted to point out as soon as I hear that, I think of these scenarios that illustrate how imperfect save percentage is as a stat.

And I know we've talked about it before, but we're gonna go a little bit of a different direction here and and maybe take it a little further over the next couple of weeks. It's just limited information that that you're being given. You know, in in the first example, I think we can agree four out of five versus five out of five. We can't categorize that as a good period because as you said, Daren, it depends on what are the chances like. So so if they don't tell us too much for a period, what's magical about a game that lets save percentage tell you whether it was a good game or a bad game?

Why is one period versus three period change things? I I think they're all too short for those numbers to tell us very much. And I I'd like you to ask yourself as a parent, why are you taking those stats? You want to be involved. You want to help your kid.

I understand it. But today, we've got John Stevenson, on the show. He is a performance coach, but he's also a sports psychologist, for a lot of kids. And it got me thinking, if you're reporting to your child shots on goal and goals against average, save percentage, what is it you're focusing on? I think John and every other expert we've had in the field talking would tell you we want them to focus on the process and not on the results.

A save percentage, especially one that's out of context is all results. It's just giving your kid results without giving them information and getting them to focus on just different results than than the actual score. Now you you may be doing it because you wanna say to your kids, look, the results on the scoreboard don't tell the whole story. You gave up a lot of goals, but your save percentage was good. Okay.

But as we said, those things don't always tell the whole story. And and while save percentage might be better than goals, I don't know that it is much better than goals as as we said because of those scenarios. And look, I still think about it. That magical 900 save percentage is still in the back of my mind when I'm watching a game because it's so ingrained in us. But, but I don't know that those results are real.

So the other question I have for you is, what are you gonna do with that information when you get it? Hey, Johnny, nine fifty save percentage. Great game. Okay. We all like to hear that.

That's great. But other than helping his confidence, what are you achieving by telling him that? Or Jimmy, eight fifty save percentage today. Not not a good game. Are you gonna deliver that info to your child and tell them it wasn't a good game?

How did that eight fifty save percentage help them as a goaltender? More importantly, how does that help them this week in practice? What are they gonna do with that nine fifty or eight fifty when they go into practice this week and help them become a better goaltender? Is Johnny gonna sit back and relax because he had a nine fifty? Is Jimmy gonna be all frustrated and and worried in practice, or is he magically gonna work harder because it was an an eight fifty?

Now a lot of us used to say to our kids, okay. You lost, but you gave up six, but look at your save percentage. It's really good. Fair enough. But I think there's better ways to deliver that information that they had a good game and to help them develop as a goaltender and a person more than just giving them those numbers.

You're just teaching them to focus on the result, and how does that help? So leave aside the fact that we should probably let the coaches do their job. I recognize that many of our kids don't have goalie coaching support, and as a parent, you really wanna help them. And a nice easy way it would seem is to start counting shots and tell them these stats. And we do want to raise healthy, happy young goaltenders who learn from their games and grow as a result of of being a goaltender.

But rather than make this, you know, into a 30 parent segment, I'm gonna leave that part of it, how we can help our kids after a game. I did say today that I'm not a fan of tracking shots on goal. I'm not a big fan of goalie stats as we see them. Next week, let's go a little deeper into it guys and I'm gonna talk about how you can reflect with your child or a goaltender that you coach after a game to help them improve in a way that's more significant than stats. And then after the week, after a week later, we're going to talk about some stats that maybe you can take, some tools you can use that will help your child in a more significant way after a game if you really do want to track things during a game.

But before we finish, I'm gonna give you a little bit of homework parents, maybe even Woody and Daren. Watch a couple of games this week. Ask yourself about save percentage. And are you seeing anything on the ice that isn't telling the same story that you that maybe that save percentage is telling? Find one thing as well this week on your child or another goalie if you don't have any games to watch yet in the season.

Find one thing that they did well in a game and one thing that they can improve on. Even if it didn't result in a goal. Something that maybe could be worked on. Two things, a little bit of homework for you. If you want to share your homework with me or if you wanna tell me that, you disagree with anything or agree with anything I've said, hit me up parents@ingoalmag.com.

I have a question that I would like to ask you your honest opinion about when it comes to save percentage. It seemed that that's a major foundation of of taking stats and evaluating each individual game. Personally, I don't think save percentages should be reported on individual games. I agree. It's become a trend in the National Hockey League.

Different outlets are are putting it out, and it's it's a new presentation. How many shots or what what's the minimum number of opportunities against your child or a goaltender where save percentage becomes appropriate? Oh. One item is too small. Is two games enough to start looking at it?

Is is three games for like, where you know how a lot of stats say minimum five games played, minimum 20 games played to qualify for a certain stat bracket. Where does where does save percentage become relevant or or become a large enough sample size?

Okay. So I think this is two separate questions. I've had it posited to me in terms of evaluating, like, as an outsider at the National Hockey League level looking at numbers that you can't really tell you need 20 games before the numbers start to normalize him. 20. 20, Daren.

But that's irrelevant. Than I thought. Yeah. That doesn't help a parent. That's not you know what I mean?

Like, because if you're like, oh, let's just wait till 20 games before we look at your numbers. Like, think like, we're talking about two different things here. Analyzing an outsider, like, like, I think that and that's once you hit 20 games, they somewhat normalize. You'd have to go in extremes the other way to move them significantly.

Yeah. It's almost set at 20 games.

So here's how it helps a parent though. Because your kid might not get 20 games in a season.

There you

go. It doesn't mean anything or it means something but not nearly what most of us like to to put on it. Look, people were looking for something better than goals against average and they came up with this, but it's so imperfect that look. You especially the further you get down, maybe the National Hockey League level where there's a relative amount of parity, any team could win on any night. As you get lower down, you know, junior hockey, there's more disparity between the teams that are rebuilding and the teams that are loading up for a run.

As you get down into minor hockey, now you've got teams that are absolutely dominant. The environment that two goaltenders are facing are completely different the further you go down. And so to say that they normalize even at 20 games, you know, I I would disagree absolutely. And again, we can talk about this as we get into a little further in the next couple weeks, but but, know, little Johnny comes across on a two on one to make a save on a one timer on the backdoor and it's from a guy who's ready to move up to major junior and he fires it at him at 80 miles an hour. And then down at the other end of the ice, the best shot this kid might face might be 50 or 60.

Like, it's they're completely different and they won't normalize because those teams are so different. And the way they play and some have structure and some don't have structure. I but but I do love, Daren, that you're at least getting into this concept of minimum number of games and and when do they mean something. But I I think the lower you get down in hockey, the less they mean.

Well, sample size. And here's the thing. I don't. I stopped including goals against average in my nhl.com article, at times to the chagrin of my editors who have to put it back in a long time ago. But as an analyst outside of that environment where I have to use the the numbers that are published, where I can refer to clear sight and adjusted numbers and somewhat account for, and I would argue the best accounting for, although nothing is perfect, the quality that they are facing.

I don't look at save percentage. I've been asked about guys on the radio, and I don't even know what their save percentage is. I just know what their adjusted number is. I mean, Eric Comrie is a prime example. People were were done with him because of what he did last year.

I think his save percentage ended up around eight eighty last year. Well, as expected, was eight fifty eight. And if you look at his performance relative to environment, he was in the top half of the league, not the basement. And so it's interesting that we say, like, it can differ from one team to another. There was a 40 difference between him and the other guys in the Buffalo Sabres.

Like, that's on the same team. So it can depend what opportunities, who you play against, what your team plays like in front of you. There's just so much that goes into it. And to your point, you know, I'm sure we're gonna get into some of the tools you can use at the minor hockey league level to quantify for some of those things in the future segments. But right now, like, I don't need you know, anybody worth a lick of salt at the National Hockey League level isn't using save percentage either.

They're using adjusted numbers.

And and the the one thing that

But if you don't have access to adjusted numbers. Say again? That that that's the only, option you have is save percentage.

It is. And and some parents may be listening to this thinking, hang on. The reason I'm doing this is because the person counting shots in our league is doing a horrible job. And that happens everywhere. I'm not blaming those people because they're usually standing in the timekeeper's box and they can't see half the play and they're just doing their best.

I definitely know of a number of people who speak quite loudly on the internet saying we have to do a better job of counting shots because people are using these save percentages. And so a parent who wants to see them counted properly, I I understand you wanting to do that, but I still question whether it means anything and whether it's helping your kid. It does make you feel a little bit better because you hate to see people talking about your kid's save percentage, and you know it should be better. But at the end of the day, we're trying to help them become a better goaltender. We shouldn't be worried about that outside noise.

And so let's talk as we move forward about some some ways of helping them better.

I don't think I got an answer there. How many games?

What? And and for me, it's infinite. It doesn't I I just say, especially since I'm looking more at the parental level, I don't think it means anything. I don't care how many games. It's not gonna normalize, especially at the minor hockey level.

Yep. That's that's my answer to it. If you're not looking at shot quality, if you're not looking at situations, you're you're not getting something. I don't believe that they equal out. Maybe at the National Hockey League level.

In which case, I like Woody's 20 game answer. I think that's great.

That's fascinating. I I love it. And, again, that's not the answer I was expecting, really. And I understand the save percentage of question, when it comes to the validity of it. But if you're looking for a stat to track and get some idea of where things are, I thought there would be a number there, but it doesn't appear that there is based on your expert opinions.

I mean, look. It's gonna be better than goals against average, but but but maybe barely.

You can say, hey. He's had a good five game stretch. He's had a good 10 game stretch. But, like, I don't think they normalize for the season until you're at that 20 game mark. And then it becomes very you have to go on an absolute heater or go the other direction hard to really make those numbers move.

Maybe that's a good thing too that you keep it in in in segments. Five, ten, and then at the end of the year, you

But again, I'll go back to what what's that information do for you? How does it help you become a better goaltender?

Yeah. Which is what this conversation for parents is all about. Different again, and that's why I said different for me trying to evaluate an NHL goaltender or other people trying to evaluate an NHL goaltender than it is for a how do I, as a parent, use these numbers in an effective way?

Need a sports psychologist to get through all this, just as a parent, never mind a goaltender trying to decipher this. But we've got a sports performance, specialist standing by on the mental training side, John Stevenson. He's stepped into the room as we bring you the feature interview brought brought to you by NHL Sense Arena, which continues to make ads to their program.

Yeah. We love NHL Sense Arena as a great tool for helping you as a goaltender. Incidentally, based on that last conversation, we may come back to Sense Arena in a future parent segment because they do give you some statistical information that does have some validity and usefulness and how you can become a better goaltender. But we'll get into that another day. The thing I screwed up last week when we talked about our friends at Sense Arena was the code.

Don't forget folks as we're talking here, the code IGM 50. If you go to, sensearena.com and you'd like to give it a try, use that code and you will save even more money than the great deals that they have on now. But we do want to mention that NHL Sense Arena 25 is now out and it's one of the biggest updates they've ever had. If you are a subscriber already to Sense Arena, it'll be downloaded. It'll be available automatically.

All the updates are always included. One of the cool things that they now have is they've got these experience points that goes along with some guidance in the app to help you through your training. And it adds a whole new, dimension to how you're training. So now you get these experience points for every drill, every game, everything you do daily, weekly, monthly challenges. They all target specific skills to help you become more engaged throughout the season.

And those experience points help you progress through different levels. There's a 100 of them taking you from NHL prospect all the way up to NHL legend, and you unlock these cool trophies, badges, all sorts of stuff along the way. And, yeah, we said before that it's about process and not results, but some of these results of trophies, badges, and achievements are gonna incentivize you to keep going, to keep working hard. Mom and dad, you know that your child that you bought this for, is gonna be excited about it and they're gonna use it because they'll be able to go into the new trophy room in the headset and check out all their achievements and see them there on the wall. So go to sensearena.com.

Please use the code IGM 50 so you save a little bit more. And, maybe in a future week, we'll talk a little bit about some of those stats.

Experience points. I like that.

That's because we finally found a stat you and us old guys can lead in.

Yeah. Exactly. If only we had them younger.

Feature Interview - John Stevenson

Yeah. John Stevenson, tell us about this conversation.

Well, I mean, John has a new website along with, John Haley, who we're gonna talk about a little bit called highperformancegoalie.com, and it it it gave us a chance to sort of catch up with him. It's been a few years. We got to know John really well. He did some live webinars with one of his probably his most famous student, Braden Holtby, back in the day at ingoalmag.com, which I think you can actually still go find it if you're a subscriber.

Oh, I think so. Absolutely.

Yeah. So you can go check out sort of some of his work with Braden. It's funny because of the registered support psychologist thing. Like, there are a bunch of clients that he has in the NHL and has had in the years since we caught up with him, but we can't really name drop. All we can say is that John has worked at the highest level, and so we were overdue for a chat with some of the best goalies.

He's got a new program out there, and we figured it was just a great excuse to catch up to him. This is a time of year. We've talked about it in the parent segment. Stressful for young goalies, stressful for goalie parents, and John is a guy who's been a great resource for both over the years. So a great chance to catch up with him before things get going at the National Hockey League level.

Can't wait. Enjoy. John Stevenson with Kevin Woodley and the NHL Sense Arena feature interview on InGoal Radio, the podcast.

Excited to welcome back to the InGoal Radio Podcast, after a far too long absence. John Stevenson, how long has it been? I wanna say it's been at least three, maybe four years. We had you on with Braden Holtby now re he's retired. So that tells you how long it's been.

Braden hasn't played for a couple of years. I was just gonna say, I was gonna introduce you as sports psychologist, John Stevenson, and yet you do so much work from vision to, you know, sort of mental co Let's get into the label. How do you refer to yourself and how has it become problematic over the years when you use a term like sports psychologist?

I use the term now performance coach.

Why?

And because that's what ultimately what I'm doing, whether that is, helping them improve the quality of their sleep, improving the quality of their visual system, and improving their ability to have their mind quiet, that when they play, they can just see, read, react rather than focusing on their thoughts. So for me, my job initially is to help them become aware of their strengths and weaknesses in all of the different areas. Then with all sorts of different people, strength and conditioning coaches, the amount of people, even the young guys, where I say, Hey, you got to go to InGoal Magazine and check out the ProReads section. Because I would have died for this as a kid. To listen to the thought process of NHL goalies and how they're seeing, reading, reacting, and really noticing all the little subtle things that's factoring into their decision making with their depth, save selection, how they're playing it.

I mean, that resource that InGoal provides is invaluable. And there's so many goalies, they've never even heard of that. So for me, it's breaking all the barriers now. We want to introduce goalies from all ages, all of these resources that at the end of the day, like I always joke about this, don't know, think me as a goalie, I'm sure you as a goalie, Kev, you have more fun when you're stopping pucks. So if that means, whatever that may be, yoga, whether that's doing concentration grids, visual edge, whatever it is, if that's allowing you to stop more pucks and you're having more fun, I think that's even from the pros all the way to little guys, you're having fun, the games just it's it's much more enjoyable.

I mean, that resource that InGoal provides is invaluable. And there's so many goalies, they've never even heard of that. So for me, it's breaking all the barriers now. We want to introduce goalies from all ages, all of these resources that at the end of the day, like I always joke about this, don't know, think me as a goalie, I'm sure you as a goalie, Kev, you have more fun when you're stopping pucks. So if that means, whatever that may be, yoga, whether that's doing concentration grids, visual edge, whatever it is, if that's allowing you to stop more pucks and you're having more fun, I think that's even from the pros all the way to little guys, you're having fun, the games just it's it's much more enjoyable.

We mentioned Braden Holtby, or I mentioned Braden Holtby off the top, sort of the client that introduced you to us, after he won the Stanley Cup. One of the first people I think the first person he thanked was you. I know you've worked with a whole bunch of other goalies since then, including right up to the NHL, a handful of names that I'm aware of, but we can't say in part because of that sports psychologist label. Like, you can't talk about clients as openly when you have that label. Is that part of it?

And is there also from the other side, is there still a negative, like, for the athlete themselves? And you shared earlier, maybe you can share it again the anecdote from Braden, where people maybe don't come seek you out because of the stigmas or the stereotype still attached to the phrase sports psychologist.

So as a registered psychologist within the province of Alberta, My regulatory body is the College of Alberta Psychologists. One of the things we're not allowed to use testimonials. We're not allowed to use anybody's names, because of confidentiality reasons. And also their argument is there's a power differential. When people enter the relationship, I have more power than the client coming in.

And they don't want to have a psychologist use that power. And I totally respect that. I totally honor those reasons. Also, as a registered psychologist within the province of Alberta, I'm only allowed to work within the province of Alberta. But I look at other sports psychologists, and this is something that no one's given me an answer to, Kev, is there's psychologists that are from Alberta, went over to Paris to work with the Olympic program who are working with athletes all across Canada who are now working in a different country and they're allowed to do that.

But then if I have a goalie from Ontario that wants to come and see me, who really needs that specialty of goalie mental skills training. There's not too many of us that do BOLI specific mental training. I'm not allowed to see that person because it's outside of my jurisdiction. And I think the other big thing, I still go back, way back, Clara Hughes. Oh my gosh.

What an amazing lady. That first time when she came out on the Bell Let's Talk campaign and introduced because there is, I think it's getting better. You know, we talked offline here, Kevin. I think it's getting better. The stigma around mental skills and psychology.

You know, I grew up in Scotland and when you, you know, the word even mental, just to say mental, has a negative connotation to it. And I know that what I'm trying to do is remove that stigma that you can come to see someone like myself from a strength based rather than a weakness. And when Clara brought out, here's a lady who just won medals at the Olympic Games, but she was clinically depressed. And how this not only helped her perform better at the Olympic Games, but it also changed her life. I think the documentary Open Heart with Henrik Lundqvist was so powerful.

Watch that and watch how he used meditation or mindfulness to help him perform better as a goalie with the New York Rangers, but then how he used mindfulness and meditation to help him recover from open heart surgery. To watch that documentary, I think that I would encourage every hockey player, forget about goalies, but go watch that program and show how this can really benefit not only to improve your performance, but just your overall quality of life.

Mindfulness, meditation, just some of the tools that you use as a performance coach for goaltenders. How has that mix evolved since we last checked in with you? And like I said, it's been it's been several years.

Think, again, goes back. I I want you know, my goalie coach a long time ago said, Johnny, if somebody gives you a drill on or off the ice, two things. Where are you going to use it in the game? Because if you're not going to use it in a game, I would question why you're doing it. How is it going to impact your performance on the ice?

And then two, where's the science? Where's the research to back it up? The science and the research now behind what it does to your brain in terms of your ability to focus, your ability to self regulate, you know, keep your emotions in check. It's unbelievable. I think for me, when I always ask, you know, what's the number one reason for training?

Number one reason, whether it's physical training, technical training, practical, mental, lifestyle, for me, Kevin, the number one reason for training is quiet mind. And the research has shown that when you're in that flow state, when you're in the zone, you're just seeing, reading and reacting, you're not thinking. And so for me, when you have this daily practice where you're going, what I call, go to your mental gym, And there's all sorts of different mindfulness meditation practices. But I encourage eyes open, I encourage goalies to do it for twenty minutes where they're following their breath. That's the first step is those exact conditions of doing that practice are going to mimic what you're going to do on the ice surface.

And so, you know, in every goalie, we, you know, I've referenced the performance wheel, physical, technical, mental lifestyle. So you got to train your body, you got to train your craft, and then you got to train your mind. And what we got to do when goalie comes in, it's a little guy or a pro, we got to look at where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are. And a little phrase that I use is, We don't rise to the occasion. We think to the level of our training.

So this is where we got to sit back and really look, okay. For some of the goalies that I work with, Kevin, it may not be mindfulness. They might need to work on their sleep hygiene first before anything else or their hydration. And that's why I like to use the word performance coach. I'm not a nutritionist.

You know, that's where we're going to put only onto an expert in that field to make sure that their hydration, their sleep, you know, all of that is performing at an optimal level.

One thing that I know you're big on, we've talked about it before. I think I you know? And in some ways, it's as simple as managing your time, but I know you've run into this before. How goalies are spending their time and how much of it is on their phones. Can you give me some examples without naming names of some of the extremes you've seen?

And is that something it's one thing to say stay off your phone. To a degree, we're all on them. I'm guilty as charged myself. But giving them alternatives, things they can do that will help them become a better goaltender, better athlete, better student, more mindful, as opposed to just saying, get off your phone. You're spending too much time on it.

And it's maybe start with the examples of of, you know, how how impactful is that, and then we can get examples of of things you can do instead.

I wanna say maybe it was two years ago, three years ago, I wrote that article. My InGoal is your phone costing you saves. So I would reference, I get all of the kids to go back and look at that article because one of the things I do list, you know, a bunch of different alternatives and you're right. You don't stop a behavior. You got to replace it with healthier alternatives.

And let me be very clear about screen time. And I mentioned this in the article. Screen time is not a bad thing. Question is, are you using it or is it using you? Because if they're on this podcast right now, we're on screen.

But this is gonna move the needle to make them a better goalie. So let me be very clear. It's not all screen time is a bad thing. It's are you using it or is it using you? So the thing that and another little phrase that I would use with goalies, Kevin, is show me your calendar and I'll predict your future.

Show me your calendar and I'll predict your future. You have one hundred and sixty eight hours, I have one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week, right? You've even talked about, we talked offline about how you're using time blocking now to really manage and organize and structure your time so that you're way more productive and more happy and joyful in your life, not just in Goal and being an NHL writer, but also with your family and having recreation time. So I would say the only thing with cell phone use is one, like what I'm seeing in my office right now is between six and nine hours of cell phone on a daily basis.

On a daily basis.

Yep. And that's not, you know Here's the thing. All have to be on our computers.

I was just gonna say people probably that are like, that's crazy. But I bet you if I look at my phone, because I bet you I bet your mind's in the fives.

And and that's that's what I'm seeing. So I have a a guy right now, obviously, because we just mentioned this. I had to he he's literally playing in is it the young guns tournament in Penticton? Is that what they call it?

Yep. It's basically the prospects tournament in Penticton.

Okay. So here's a guy, and you know that I'm a big proponent of vision training, whatever it may be. Neuro tracker, Vizual edge, Sense Arena. There's all sorts of different programs. There's all these great programs.

But none of those programs will work if you're on your cell phone for that length of time. Because it's like if you go to the gym and you go work out, you're eating McDonald's, literally, what's the workout gonna do for you? So it's not it's not gonna do anything for you.

So Okay. So hold on. So, like, I think of the cell phone from a mental distraction standpoint, you're saying it actually decreases the value of your vision and erases your vision train.

They cancel each other up. They literally cancel each other out.

Just because the nature of what it does to the eyes to look at, scroll through an Instagram for three hours?

You have 6 major eye muscles. When you're doing all this stuff, literally your visual like you get myopic vision. So if I'm doing this, this, and then I go to look up, well, it's going to look blurry. So going from low to high, high to low on the PK, my eyes can't transition. If I'm doing this, this, this, what do you think I'm doing to my peripheral vision?

So now when the rush comes down, right, and if I don't see McDavid or I don't see, you know, a defenceman on the backdoor.

Because and just for those because because we don't use the video, so it it is purely audio on the on the podcast. When John says this, this, this, he's, you know, he's showing us like he's holding a phone up right in front of his face and scrolling whatever his favorite social media is.

And we know now it's not John Stephenson's opinion. We know that the Hockey, Instagram, YouTube literally produce slower brainwave processing. And the one thing that you hear on it, you know, on your InGoal ProReads is how quickly these guys are noticing little subtle things and they're noticing it way sooner on the rush. And when you're on your cell phone, now your brain processing speed is significantly reduced. So I go back to this one client and I'll just put it this way.

He just signed a two year deal with an NHL club and he was doing neurotracker and I could see that his scores were plateauing. They weren't getting better. And so I asked him, I said, You know, how much is cell phone? Five hours a day. And I said, That's it.

We're done. We're not working together anymore. And he's like, What? I said, If you want to go sign up with NeuroTracker, go do it on your own. But you're not doing it under my watch.

Now here's a young guy now and I can't just come back to this coachability, really hearing it, honoring it because I know how bad he wanted to play in the NHL. And here's a guy on game day, game days now. He just broke records last year. Guess how much screen time he has on game days?

I'm hoping zero. Is that possible?

Five minutes of neurotracker to warm up his eyes. That's it. On non game days, guess what he's been able to get it down to now?

An hour?

Between forty five minutes and an hour. And that's

we only have twenty four hours in a day where he should be asleep for eight of them. That shouldn't be a hard target, and yet I know I wouldn't be able to hit it.

Oh, the dopamine. It's it's it's a dopamine that it does. It's not, Kevin. It's hard. But then you got to really, you know, it goes back to the one thing that I've seen, you know, with a lot of the guys that I've worked with that are playing in the NHL right now.

The one common denominator, they always believed that they were going to play in the NHL. I just believed. When I read Mike Valley's book and Justin Goldman and you read those testimonials and you hear those guys, they had this just belief, this absolute belief that they were going to play in the NHL. This guy that I'm talking about, I can't mention his name, but just the other day he was before he headed off to the tournament, he said, you know, I believe John, like that's the goal. Will do everything and anything to play in the National Hockey League.

And so for him, that's why I call it start, stop, and continue. Some things we need to start doing things, maybe we need to start to improve the quality of our diet. Because this same guy, when he was playing in the Western Hockey League a few years ago, was having like two bottles of two liter iced teas, brisk iced teas a day. And I'm like, Man, if you keep doing this, you're going to be diabetic by time you're 24. So he started, and even this summer, he radically, radically changed his diet, radically.

He started eliminating processed foods, like everything. The quality of this diet radically changed. He stopped being on himself or he stopped the screen time. And then there's other things like I call it continue. What are things that you're doing really well that you're really proud of that you know and he's using Visual Edge.

He uses that three, four times a week. He does NeuroTracker. So like he's really self reflected. He's looked at each of those things and said, Okay, this is what I need to start doing. This is what I need to stop doing.

This is what I need to continue doing if I want to be a number one goalie in the National Hockey League. And that takes a lot of courage and that takes a lot of mental resiliency to put back and really hear a message sometimes you may not wanna hear.

I'm guessing you've had clients that hear that message from you and maybe decide they don't wanna take that step or do that work.

Unfortunately, yes. And it's cost them. It you know? And these are guys that have actually they signed. They got drafted into the NHL.

And then, you know, when it came time to sign them, they never got signed. And then unfortunately, they start to look outside themselves, you know, why did this happen? And I think, you know, the young guy that I'm mentioning, he never got drafted into the Western Hockey League. He never got drafted into the NHL. But meanwhile, he's playing pro because he was one of those guys where he, any of the guys that I've worked with that have played in the NHL, they are really open to hear from strength and conditioning coaches, goalie coaches, you know, mental coaches, whatever you want to call me, from nutritionists to all of these where they've brought in these experts and said, Hey, like the quality of your sleep right now, we got to get your sleep better.

And are you open to hear these different ideas that when you're on the road, on a bus in the coast to improve your the the quality of your sleep? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. If if that's what it's gonna take, then I'll then I'll do it.

So all the different aspects where you can find areas improvement, we're always looking for that one or 2%. Goalies are always looking for that one or 2%. You know, of all those different aspects, like, does the performance wheel when we talk about looking in the mirror like this and identifying your weaknesses, does the performance wheel still serve as a tool for this for you?

Like, what is

And maybe maybe for those for those of our audience that maybe because it's been a few years that don't remember. Walk us through it and some of those different elements that if I'm a goalie right now and I just got cut from a team I thought I would make, and I wanna have a true honest self reflection and look in the mirror and figure out what are the things I'm doing and not doing. Maybe walk us through that list of what's on the performance wheel and what they should be looking at.

Sure. So I I purposely drew it like a wheel, Kevin, because so on the top left hand quadrant, have your physical skills. So, you know, and again, InGoal has a phenomenal resource of all the strength and conditioning coaches and all the different things, you know, speed, agility, quickness, your core, you know, your eye hand, all of that. So you got to train your body. And what I would encourage all goalies to do is they got to find someone who's going to do an honest assessment of where they're at and see where their strengths and weaknesses are.

So if they're going to an NHL combine, there's no surprise. Guys going into their NHL development camps, they know what's going to show up. And then on the technical side, right, you have your head trajectory, your skating, your angles, your positioning, your puck handling, your stance, right? All like your tibia torso ratio that Scott Murray has talked a lot about. So you're looking again, you got to find a goalie coach that's going to really tell Hey, straight up.

If you were to go to this next level, is it going to hold up or not? So you got your physical skills, you got your technical skills. Bottom left hand quadrant is your tactical, your hockey IQ. And my friend, dear friend, who's just been always there for me, Mitch Korn, I love this phrase. Mitch says, Goal tending is not a game of shots.

Goal tending is a game of situations. And the best goalies in the world know where to stand and what tools to use in their toolbox based on their situational awareness. And we can train that. And that's where all the vision training. And to me, probably a lot of the older guys in the NHL, maybe they're not doing it.

But I pretty much every young guy that's coming into the league now, like they know that everybody's doing it. And it's the same like power scanning or weight training. If you're not doing some type of vision training now, you won't compete with the guys that are after even six months. It's just the results are there to show it. And then the bottom part of the wheel is the mental skills.

So what I try to encourage guys to do, you don't want one part of the wheel bigger than the other, right? It's a balanced approach. So if I called up a guy and said, Hey, you know, what did you do in your physical gym today? I did some foam rolling and I did some mobility. What did you do on your ice?

Like, was really working on my head trajectory. What did you do in your tactical gym today? Well, I did some visual edge, you know, really working on contrast sensitivity or working on my depth perception. What did you do mentally? Well, I took five minutes or even two minutes and I just did some box breathing.

Now, what the key thing to this wheel is the hub of the wheel. And the hub of the wheel is your lifestyle. It's your sleep, your hydration, your nutrition, and your screen time. And if that hub, if you got that car driving down the highway, when that hub's a little bit loose, how well is that car gonna ride? Right?

And if that hub comes completely off, then that car is gonna crash. And the great Kobe Bryant talks about that. You have to one, there's so many great interviews with him, but he talks about the importance of reviewing game film. When really sitting down, he called him the Yoda where he really sat down and broke down his game film, really, really broke it down. And every goalie should be going through their game film.

But the other thing, the first thing he talked about, and I would argue that Kobe Bryant was probably one of the hardest training guys. Would you not agree with that, Kev? Famous for it. And one of the things he said is the biggest change in his life is when he improved the quality of his sleep. And from the performance wheel perspective, everything starts with the quality of your sleep.

So to go back to our cell phone, if you're on your cell phone right up until you go to sleep, that blue light is telling your brain what? And then now you're not getting that deep quality restorative sleep. That's why you're seeing more and more of these clubs and organizations bringing in the Garmin watch, the Stroop, because they wanna literally see not just the quantity, but quality. Because now if you're not getting that good, deep restorative sleep, your energy level, your ability to focus, your ability to train the next day, it's gonna get significantly impacted. So I'll use a little David Goggins phrase here.

You've got to triple down on your weaknesses, right? And so you got to look at each quadrant of the wheel. And if you bought cut or I'll even say even if you didn't get, say now you're playing on a Western Hockey League game, you've made the team. But if you got pulled up and then obviously I know this couldn't happen, but if you got pulled up to go play your first throw game and this is the thing that, you know, when I was the goalie coach for the Saskatoon Blades, the thing that impressed me about ProReads and Hockey is he'd come there and then this was like a pit stop. The the Blades were a pit stop on the way to becoming a pro goalie.

So in the morning, he conducted himself like a pro. Where other guys were sitting in the lounge watching, you know, Sports Net, the card show, and and all this other reality TV stuff. There's Braden watching game film. There's Braden doing ball drills. There's Braden doing biofeedback.

The guys that I've seen, that's what they do. Like, they they look and go, okay. Yeah. I'm playing at this level. But if I got called up to the next level, what part of my game would hold up and what part of my game would absolutely crumble?

So like this other guy that I just mentioned, he had some experience at the American Hockey League at the end of the season. And one of the things he realized was, boy, cracking, cracking. These guys can release the clock so much faster and disguise it so much more that this is a part of my game off the ice. I'm gonna use synaptic strobe glasses, or I'm gonna use Hext sticks to be able to read the release better. And that's him sitting there going, Hey, I'm not great at this, but I know what I can do.

And then you get the white pucks, you get the mini pucks, you get all these different things that you can use on the ice. But you sit back and go, Hey, this is part of my game. If I play consistently in the American Hockey, I got to get better or they're going to expose me. Then now you've sat back, you've reflected on it, and now you're gonna go work on it and and and make it better. And I think that's to me mental toughness.

I was just gonna say, like, we always hear that phrase, you can't out train a bad diet. Yep. And it sounds like just even giving yourself the time or the proper focus to work on those other things, managing the cell phone and the schedule would be the bad diet equivalent as part of that as part of that, equation.

Well, look at that 15 year old that made, you know, he broke Tiger Woods record. Now I've never met this young guy. He was the youngest guy to become the number one golfer in the world. And then he got invited to a PGA core event and ended up qualifying. He ended up finishing in the top 20.

Now, I bet you, if we looked at from the moment he wakes up to the moment he goes to bed, you think he has a team that's really outlined. And here's a guy who's in grade 10. He's competing with guys that are, you know, maybe even three times his age. And there's a guy, I bet you if you looked at his schedule, those guys you know they're on the golf course anywhere from six to eight hours. And it was funny, when after he had this really successful tournament, one of the interviewers asked him, he said you know what was there anything you know unique about this playing it?

He said, well, the only weird thing was that my mom had to drive me to the tournament. But if you look at that guy and how much he's progressed and you see all of the different things. Again, this is not a goaltending thing. That's the athletes. That's why you're seeing more and more of these young athletes.

They're rising on the stage because they're very disciplined with their time. So again, I go back to this real quickly. If you're spending six to eight hours on your cell phone, one, not only are you damaging your visual system and your brain processing speed, but what are you not doing that's going to take you to that next level? Maybe, you know, so like this one goalie that I mentioned, as an alternative, he started foam rolling at night. He started doing mobility.

Rather than being on his cell phone, he found that was a way to get out of his head, quiet his mind, improve his mobility, improve his flexibility. And then that allowed him to get a more deep, restful quality sleep. So there was one of the ways, not just to improve his mobility and his flexibility, but a way to get off the cell phone and improve the quality of his sleep. Then, I wonder why he signed a two year deal as a pro goalie.

Yeah. It goes back to that phrase. Right? Show me your schedule and I'll predict your future. How we use those hundred and sixty eight hours a week that we have.

So I wanted to get into, you've got a new program out, highperformancegoalie.com with John Haley. So first off, for those of us who don't know him, I've had a chance to poke around it, and it's it's exceptional. Introduce us to John Haley, and then introduce us to this program because we've sort of we've we've we've taken a bird's eye view approach, you know, of of all the different things and the different ways to get goalies to focus on the right thing. And I know you have access to some of the tools, you know, like a neurotracker, like vision training if they're in Edmonton or in Alberta, and they can come work with you. But it looks like this program is something that allows you to take some of the things you've learned, some of the mental tools, some of the mindfulness, some of the meditation, and take it to goalies outside Alberta through the web portal.

Walk me through highperformancegoalie.com and John Haley and how that relationship started and what you guys are trying to do.

Sure. So, I'm sure with a lot of the interviews you've done with the top goalies in the world, they they have little cue phrases that they say to themselves throughout the game. You know, they use these little cue that we we should show it on the blocker on their stick. They might say it right before the face off happens, you know, hard push, hard fast, like, whatever it might be. It could be a feeling word.

It could be a typical word. It could be a focus word, you know, right here, right now. So why bring this up? John Haley back in John got drafted. He was a goalie.

He played the NCAA div one. He, I don't know if this is a cursing or blessing. I don't want to put words into John's mouth, but he got drafted by the Edmonton Oilers in 1984. And some guy named Andy Moog and Grant Fuhr So was there at the so the chances of probably cracking the Oilers lineup was probably about zero to none. But one of the things John created this program called the Goalie's Mind, and it was this series of affirmations, the positive self talk phrases that were put to this baroque music to this certain heartbeat, that when you would listen to it before you go to bed or you'd listen to it prior to going to your practice or to a game, It was these positive self talk.

And when you would repeat it, you'd almost get in this kind of hypnagogic, like kind of relaxed, calm state. And your mind was more open and more suggestible to hearing those affirmations. Now, at that time, I was running my goalie school. And so John contacted me and I started, and I'm so old now, Kevin, this was CDs. We would give out CDs to these goalies.

So I'd say, know, buy this, guys. Well, guys were coming back and they're like, God, I've had the best 10 games of my life ever since listening to this program. So I saw firsthand what sounds crazy, but like listening to this self talk and these positive affirmations. The one thing I encourage goalies to do, and we all know that mental rehearsal work because the brain can't tell the difference between what's real and what's imagined. So as they're listening to these phrases, they were getting a really good clear picture of themselves.

And Pete's talked about this and how they're really playing, performing when they're really performing well. So that's how I got introduced to John. And so I reached out to him again. It had been a while. And I said, John, I really want to, you know, come up with a mental skills training program that guys, you know, like not a workshop where it's like a one day thing, but they could keep coming back because we know compound interest.

It's a little a lot rather than a lot a little. So if you're going in and you're spending time every day working in your mental gym and you go a little bit every day, when you have access to this program where you can go back is every time as much as you want, then you're going to strengthen your brain. And so not just for goaltending, but for life as well. So he said, I'm all on board. So one of the first things he asked me, he said, What's the biggest thing that comes through your office, John?

Biggest thing that really derails goalies. And we all know the word confidence. Know, everybody talks, you know, goalies need confidence. And the biggest thing that came up, John, was how do you respond after giving up a goal? And I love how Pete Fry says this.

Pete says, I didn't come up with the save. I love that. That's one thing I learned from Pete. And so I saw these guys and you're going to laugh because you know we've talked about this. They would take the water bottle, They'd squirt it up in the air because they saw some guy named Braden Holtby or Frederik Andersen or Carter Hart doing this, you know, water bottle squirt.

But and these kids were doing it, but they had no idea why they were doing it and the purpose behind it and how it was helping them to reset. So the first module that I came up with this is what we call this instant reset. And so it helps OK, like again, and I did this just jokingly. And I mean, you can go check this out. Go back and look at the last even just fifteen, twenty years of the guys that have won the Vezina.

Okay? And I say this in the program right off the start, like I've never met a goalie who likes to get scored on. And hopefully we won't. But one of my mentors, Doctor. Goldberg, he always used to say, The problem's not problem.

Problem is how you're going to respond to it. And so if you look at the best goalies with the best defense in front of them, okay, they're average, they're save percentage. Guess what their save percentage is, Kevin?

That's probably in the nine twenty range?

Yeah. Nine nine twenty nine, what I took. K? And then their goals against, that's what their goals against is.

Over two?

Two and a quarter? Yeah. It's like two. So what does that numbers tell you? Best in the world.

Best in the world with the best defense in the world are gonna get scored on. So if you don't wanna if you don't wanna get scored on, then don't be a goalie. Because the reality is you're gonna get scored on.

Best in the world with the best defense in the world are gonna get scored on. So if you don't wanna if you don't wanna get scored on, then don't be a goalie. Because the reality is you're gonna get scored on. So this program, the initial program, is to show kids how to effectively manage this and respond to it so that I joke about this, but I call it the Elsa or the Taylor Swift where Elsa in the movie Frozen, she'd sings that song, Let It Go. From Taylor Swift, take it off.

Shake it off. So I don't want goalies to be great and mopey. I don't. There's so many different ways that we can let go and better respond. So the whole program is I try to go into screen time because a lot of kids don't realize one of the reasons why they're giving up goals in the first place is because they're on their cell phone too much.

But it's to show all these, what I call recognize, regroup, refocus. And there's these three stages of if we're not aware that we're focusing on the wrong thing at the wrong time, right? If I'm still thinking about the previous goal and I'm not aware of it, and I've used this metaphor of a flashlight, imagine you're on the ice surface and it's pitch black. Well, really quickly here, our flashlight needs to be on the ice surface. It needs to be on the play at hand.

And that's what ProRead does so well. And it really explains what goalies are really noticing attention to. And then the best goalies where you get Visual Edge and Neuro Tracker and Synaptic and all these programs, best goalies in the world can get that flashlight to go from broad to narrow, narrow to broad. And they can do it really, really quick. And then the third thing is, I'm thinking, I don't care what you're thinking.

It doesn't matter what you're thinking. If you're thinking about your mom and dad or you're thinking about trying to get a pro contract or you're thinking about mechanics, now the flashlight's pointing on your head as you're focusing on your thoughts. And if you're thinking about the previous goal, Now flashlights on your head and you're literally blind. You're not now not paying attention to the very thing that you need to be paying attention to on the ice. But again, if you're not aware of that, how can you change it?

And so that's the whole point of this program is to start to show kids why the goal is, you know, when you see this goalie giving up four goals within three minutes, Why is that happening? So it's to give them all these different ways of responding to it, then they find out what works best for them, not what works best for Joseph Woll of the Toronto Maple Leafs. And you're trying to find out what works best for you.

Tools in the toolbox. Right? So you're giving them tools to solve a problem in terms of recognizing, regroup, refocusing. But there is more one more than one way to do it.

You can't do this cookie cutter. You you know, you might there might be a whole bunch of different things. Right? You could I go back to Nikita Tolopilo, he'd lift his lid and spray water on his face and he'd feel the water on his face. That was his way of kind of releasing it, right?

Might work. For one guy, it might work, but another guy, he might need to take his gate to the corner. And like Marc Andre Fleury put a little smile on his face, like every each to his own. And I think me as whatever you want to call me, goalie coach, mental coach, I think the big thing you have to find is what works for that person and help them to discover what works for that person.

Part of that, one of the things you stress is no goal review in game. Why? I mean, we sort of heard, like, if you're if you're reflecting back on it, but but we know some goalies even at the NHL level, they'll look up. They wanna see why it went in. They'll give it they'll give it an x amount of time, and then they'll refocus.

Why don't you want to sort of assess goals in game?

I'm not saying that. Okay. Because there are some guys, there's some guys like my only my only caution to it. And I think there are a lot of guys now that they can look up and there's no self judgment. There's no criticism.

There's no being hard on themselves or beating the crap out of themselves. So there's through, I think in some ways, whatever it might be, it is through a mindfulness practice or a meditation practice, but they're almost kind of looking at that like the weatherman. They're just noticing it and observing it from a factual point of view. There's no emotion behind it. Does that make sense, Kevin, what I'm saying that?

They're not ripping the crap out of themselves. So there's a lot of guys now, more and more guys now that can look at that Jumbotron or the film, or do it in a way where they detach themselves and they can, Oh, I got it. And then they can make that quick little adjustment and put back. But what I have seen, I'd seen, let's say for a lot of guys, unless they learn this skill of attaching, that they get so caught up with their emotions. They get so overwhelmed that they get so hard on themselves and so judgmental and critical that they just that almost even spirals them more into their head and overthink things.

Then like, so to me, the time and place is to sit down with your goalie coach afterwards and review that goal against because there could be the tendency where guys just get used to that that's why. But there's more and more guys are getting better at it now they can do it.

I'm thinking along the same lines. Like, there is no one answer. There is no one tool that's gonna solve it. But, obviously, a big problem we see for a lot of goaltenders and one I may be familiar with in life, overthinking. Yes.

How do we you know? And, again, knowing that there is no just one answer, just like there is no one way to to to play goal, you know, if that's something like, how do you look for signs of it in goaltenders? And what advice do you you know, how would you proceed to sort of help somebody get out of that process?

Well, you know this better than anybody. If you see negative body language, Kevin, you see negative body language from any goaltender. Right? Where do where do you think their flashlight is pointed?

Not in the right spot. Not on the next play.

Yeah. It's literally on their head. So that's one of the first telltale signs for me. As a former NHL scout, you know, Western Hockey League scout, if I saw negative body language, I'm like, uh-oh, this guy's in trouble because he's so in his head questioning, his ability right now that that's where it could be. Unless he lets this go and gets his head back onto the play, they're gonna be in trouble.

The thing What my answer would be is we're thinking creatures. We're thinking all the time. If we're not thinking, well, we're either in a coma or other worst case scenario. So the mind is always thinking. Okay?

So it's, because if I said to you, Kevin, close your eyes right now and see how long you could go before a thought pops up in your head.

Not very long.

Right. And so I'm a big believer and a lot of people have heard me say this is that thoughts and feelings are like the weather. They show up. Whether we want it or not, they're going to show up. Right?

And to me, one of the guys that I coached played his first pro game last night. I've had guys when they're going go play their first national hockey league game. They think they're going to have thoughts that night? You're playing in the Stanley Cup finals for the first time ever in your life. Right?

Are you gonna have thoughts? Why wouldn't you? So to me, it's a normal thing. Thoughts are just thought. What gets guys into trouble is they start to believe everything that goes through their head.

And what we're learning and one of the strategies, it could be conscious breathing. And what I mean by conscious breathing, feeling your breath. Because you can't feel your breath in the past. You can't feel the sensation of the coolness going in and the warmth going out in the future. The only time zone you can feel that breath is in the moment and you're out of your head.

So practices like mindfulness, again, if I'm practicing just mindfulness of breath, at some point in time, it could be five seconds into the meditation, it could be twenty five minutes in, am I going to have a thought? Absolutely. So now when those thoughts do show up, what I'm learning to do through my meditation practice is better respond to them rather than react to them. And then I can take that skill and bring it to the ice surface. And how do we get good at our, you know, RVH post integration?

How do we get good at our shuffling? It's practice. That's how we get good at it. So that's why eventually I'm a big advocate of, you know, we want to build up. A lot of the research is showing that especially for goalies, we want to eventually get to this twenty minute, if not longer meditation practice because twenty minutes is the length of the period.

And so, but we've got to do it slowly. I made a mistake early in my career. I try to get guys to do twenty minutes right off the hop and it's too much too quickly. You got to start off slow. Especially if there are little guys like 10 or 11 years old, it might be start off with one minute.

And then each week you add thirty seconds when you slowly, slowly build up that confidence level. So you're never going to not stop thinking, and and you don't want to. It's learning how to better respond to it than rather than react and get caught up with it, and then start going down the rabbit hole.

And that's just one of several things that you lead them through. There's like, you know, I see four different breath count meditation videos that are all part of the program at highperformancegoalie.com.

Yeah. And I think it's the same thing. It's what might work for one guy. Like, you know, me personally, I'm not a big breath counter. I know there's box breathing and the Navy SEALs use it.

Some guys having said that, they do box breathing, you know, as part of their pregame and postgame. And it works for them. Really, really works for them. Me, I like to feel the breath rather than count it. But everybody's got to go go experiment and try it.

And it's the same thing like I've had guys where they'll make visual edge part of their program on game day. But how they came to that decision is they tried it in practice. Decided, tried it, you know, and such if it worked for them. Other guys, like they'll do it every other day except on game day. So again, I keep going back.

There's no one shop with each other approach. Guys gotta That's the whole point of this program is need to throw all these different options and then you gotta go work it and then go try to find out what's gonna work best for you. Then we give feedback and guidance about that.

Tension, the enemy of goaltending is my good friend, Ian Clark likes to say. Does that apply mentally? Like, is I mean, I'm guessing, like, muscle tension is not what we want. We want that relaxed state. Beyond meditation, are there other ways to sort of, a, recognize when we're tense and b, get rid of that tension?

Well, great question. I think like there's long, long, long time ago, progressive muscle relaxation. It's a technique where you systematically tense to varying degrees from 5% all the way up to full contraction, where you can literally go through the whole body and you tense different muscle groups and let it go. And that could actually be part of your reset routine. That was what it was for me.

I used to squeeze to wrap out of the paddle of my stick, really bring all my awareness and then let it go. And you could physically feel the release and then take that breath and then bring it back to an outside focal point. EMR, active PMR where you're actually aggressively, aggressively, but eventually you get to the point where you can just do like raise your shoulder up a half an inch or a quarter of an inch, and you can notice that tension. And then you can get so good at it, Kevin, that you can do what's called passive PMR, where you literally just bring your awareness to that body part. And by just you bringing awareness to that body part, all of a sudden you can and you get good at it.

Like you can literally let that muscle just let go. There I would I traditionally, I started in the past where I do the active PMR, but then they eventually get to the point where it's like they can just say, okay, and there's a technique called autogenic. There's another technique called six bridges where you can literally just bring your awareness to that body part and then be able to just autonomically just let it go. But it takes time. Like, you know, again, some of my NHL goalies, it's it's taken them a year, like a year to really go and work on this.

It's like any other part of of the wheel that did to get really good at it. Love it.

John, we're almost an hour here.

That's that's right.

It's the way it goes. Last one, I wanna ask you because we've done it before. And so readers of InGoal, the the veterans know this one, but have, for the for for newbies, I want them to get to know you better, and and obviously the things that they can access at highperformancegoalie.com with you and John Haley. But your seven c's of mental toughness, because I imagine whether you outline them as part of this program or not, they exist within it. What are they?

For goalies that always say, hey. I wanna be mentally tougher, or I see myself as a mentally tough goalie. What are your seven c's of mental toughness?

So concentration, commitment, composure, confidence, consistency, coachability, and compassion. And I would say argue more and more as I get older and older have the coachability part keeps showing up more and more.

So concentration, commitment, composure, confidence, consistency, coachability, and compassion. And I would say argue more and more as I get older and older have the coachability part keeps showing up more and more. Really no one wants to be told that this part of their game is not great. It hurts. Know, like I always this time of the year, I don't know about your experience Kevin, but I just cut from more teams than I made teams and it sucks to get cut.

It just sucks. But this is the if you do get cut, that's where I'd really encourage you to find someone, that cares about you, really cares about you, really, really cares about you, wants to see you do well. But then you got to really, you know, have an open heart and open mind and hear, Hey, there's a reason why this team didn't pick you. And that hurts, man, that hurts. But I would say that coachability piece and then now, hey, I really going to make the changes?

And I don't think that's mom or dad. I don't think that's your agent. I don't think that's your goalie coach. It goes back, know, how bad do you want to be a goalie? How bad do you want to play, you know, at that next level?

That's one thing I would say, it has been one of the biggest as I've got older, the guys that I've seen do well, where they can, you know, really hear that and make the changes. And I think it's important to have you want to have a team. You want to find someone who's going to, you know, really tell you the truth, even even though it could be painful to hear.

Is it Kenny? And this is didn't mean to add this in, but and I don't wanna make this a generational thing, but but is it getting harder to hear that? Like, are kids less likely to want like, does it does it feel like, and maybe this was just always the case, but it just sure feels from the outside, like, you know, like, hey. I'm not your number one. Trade me right now.

You know, a little bit of that sort of entitlement's not the right word, but I just feel like that self reflection as much as we've spent most of the past hour talking about the importance of it, seems to be a bit of a lost art. Maybe that's just me being old and thinking that everything sucks now, but it feels like that from the outside sometimes.

That's a great question. I went back. I can't remember when that book was written. You know, Mike Valley and Justin Goldman's book, The Power Within.

It's it's been a while. It's been and it's still relevant all these years later.

It is. And I really

like that. Scott, I think it might be a decade.

Yeah. I think it is. And they mentioned it dead. Like, you know, ego. You know?

Parking your ego. I would say where in the past, you might have only had one guy. Maybe you had just your goalie coach. There's so many, you know, a lot of these kids now, they have agents or advisors when they're 14 years old, which is, in my mind, is kind of crazy. But you're getting all these different inputs coming in.

And I think, who do you listen to? I think that's where it can be difficult for the parents. It could be difficult for the kids. Who do you really sit down and listen to? That's hard.

I wish I had an easy answer for it. I just had a young guy just literally today. I just got a text message saying he got cut. And I told him three weeks to go, Get out of there. Like, Leaf, Leaf.

Like, I'm telling you right now, if they haven't signed you now, they're never going to sign you. And he just like, I love this kid to death, but he didn't listen to me. And I knew what was coming down the pike. I hope he ends up finding a team because this kid can play. He can play.

But I think it's really finding that. That's why I keep going back to finding that person that really, really has your back. Sometimes they're not going to sugarcoat it. They're going to tell you the truth. And Hopefully, understand where they're coming from and that they've had that expertise.

It's not just some guy who's been in like I've been in the goalie industry now for over forty years. So I'm not saying I know all and I'm the one to be all in everything but I've seen enough stuff go down where it's like, Hey, if I'm saying, Hey, like this is what you need to do. And I've had success. I've been lucky to have success. I think that it's important to really hear those guys out.

We were right 12/01/2013 publishing date for The Power Within.

Yes. So it it's it's been around for a while, and it was mentioned there.

Still relevant now?

Yes. Absolutely.

Okay. Speaking of still relevant, we haven't heard from you for a while, but clearly up to good things for the world of goaltending. John, if people are blessed enough to live in Alberta and able to work with you in person, where would they get ahold of you?

So, championsmindset.ca. And one of the things that we offer there is they can have a three free thirty minute session with me. We can do it virtually. We can do it in person, because I wanna make sure that we're a good fit. And and I wanna hear what the concerns are for those goalies and and how I can help them.

So there's no cost involved. They can go online. They can championsmindset.ca, and they can literally book online and go from there. And then there's the high performance.

I was just gonna say in person, if they're in in a in person, you know, we talk about the tools, you mentioned neurotracker, you've got the Dynavision. Like, you've got a bunch of tools there that go beyond just the mindset, but also into the visual and a lot of the the ability to train some of the other elements as well if it's in person.

Yeah. So like for me, I've got to the stage now if again, with all these different companies, all these different companies out there and they all do a great job. At my facility, I use the Synaptic, I use the, Reflection Edge and I use the Neuro Tracker and I've used in the past Visual Edge. They're all great programs. So I literally do an assessment.

I literally start with an assessment and we literally measure your visual systems. And then based on the assessment, we design a program that not only are you doing it here, but more importantly, you're doing these exercises at home. We can custom make programs where you're doing it online, where maybe once a week you're coming down to see me for about half an hour. But the real bulk of the work is what you're doing at home.

And then of course, highperformancegoalie.com for those of us who don't have the ability to to see you in person in Edmonton in the Alberta area. Just check it out online and go from there. Is there anything else you wanna tell us about that program?

Oh, what we're going to be doing is I'm going to be going over, we've got the first module out, the instant reset. But over the next few months, we're going to be putting out these modules that cover in detail the seven c's of mental toughness. And then more importantly, give the goalie the tools, the strategies, the exercise, literally the exercises to go and work and develop each of those. What do I need to do to have a good solid pregame routine? Because good performances and bad performances, not random.

They don't just happen. There's a reason. And so again, that's the whole over the next few months, you're going to see more and more of those modules coming encourage goalies to do, like once you purchase the program, you're going to have it for life. We want goalies like, even Mitch Korn went over and he said, John, this is not like Netflix where you've been binge watch four and a half hours going over the instant reset. You're gonna wanna watch this several times to really make it where it's becoming part of you.

Love it, John. Thank you so much for the time. It's been over an hour. It's been far too long since we caught up. Look forward.

And, of course, we'll put links in the show notes to all these things as well as some of John's articles in the past. For those who have been around InGoal for a long time, they know him right away. He's got lots of great articles up at our site. We did the one day webinar, and in person with him and and Pete Fry, and there are still articles. How to juggle?

All these different things courtesy of John C. Stevenson at InGoalmag dot com. We thank you for taking the time to join us here on the podcast, and we look forward to staying in touch and catching up soon.

I can't thank you enough for for having me on, and, it's I love I love chatting with you everything about goaltending. It's awesome. Thanks so much again, Kev.

Our pleasure.

Outro

It happens fairly regularly where we have a feature interview that I go back and I listen to multiple times. That's the latest example where I will get more and more out of it the more I listen to. It's just if you don't have a pen in in you need to keep track of things, that's a perfect example of it.

John has got this giant toolkit full of things that you can do. I I love because you can hear the passion in every interview with John as he talks about everything that he does with goaltenders, whether it's the breath work or whether it's the particular juggling tools that he works with or it just goes on and on. And so you learn something from him and you get excited every time you hear him and say, I want to try that. I want to try that. It's nice that he's now wrapping it up in a site that you'll be able to go to and learn from online because there's just so much there to what he does.

And and like I said, it's just great to see how excited he is by all of it.

Yeah. And and John Haley too, who I don't know, but I've heard other people speak quite highly of him and the affirmations. And, you know, it's amazing. I think we can be dismissive or skeptical of stuff like that, and yet when you talk to people that use them, like, it's that old look good, feel good, play good. Right?

Like, feel good, build the right mindset through the affirmations, and go out and perform better. And there's a lot of goalies that believe they do for years and years using the affirmations that John Haley provides as part of that website. So if you're interested in checking it out, it is we'll put it in the show notes, but highperformancegoalie.com. Some options there to get involved with those too. And, hopefully, our interview with John gave you a glimpse of some of the tools that'll be available to you if you do.

Last week, played a men's league game. We had five skaters, and we lost in a shootout. It was nine eight in the shootout, but we took it, and I was fine with it. We'd go off in the sudden death portion of the shootout, but we had five skaters from the very start. And it was it was fascinating.

The the funniest part of it was and these these experiences that we have that we've never been through. There's a delayed penalty in the other team, and my first instinct was I took a, like, half a step towards the bench for the extra attacker. I know it's Vince Lake, and why are you doing that? But we do. Yeah. But there was there's nobody to come on.

I I think in that sense, they should change the rule and the goalie's allowed to play the puck across center.

That that's what one of my teammates said. Why didn't you just come up and and try to keep the puck in at the blue line?

Yeah. Perfect.

Away, if they would allow me to, I'd just go straight to the net.

I was talking about going to the bench just for a little bit of a rest myself, but then that would have rubbed it into the other guys that they that that they couldn't they couldn't and we still had one guy poaching, looking for the breakaway passes. That that that's a men's league special right now. You have five skaters the entire game, and you still have a guy poaching breaking below in the zone.

Oh, and they wonder why was beer league goalies need a sports psychologist. We just need a straight out psychologist. Thank you very much. Showing up to the rink when you've only got five skater. That's depressing.

I once, played a beer league game, Daren, and I was against the team that only had five skaters. And we came out on the wrong end of it. That was one of the more embarrassing moments. These guys were so tired. They had all their water bottles lined up on the bench and they would skate by and grab them and swig a drink and just keep going on the shift and and we still couldn't win.

Tough night.

I love that. I love that. I'll give the other goalie credit. A bit of a jerk move, but every time we'd ice it, he would come out and play the puck.

I did that.

Play it up. So the icing was waived off.

Did that. That's probably why I deserve

to lose the game. It it was it was a good move. It was a good move, but we we really needed it. So

I think karma bit bit me on that one.

Have a good week, you guys. It's good to you guys are together. I like this.

We're almost there, Daren. Come rock. Regular season. Coming up fast.

A week from where we're recording this, the the Euro face off is taking place across the pond. So the the global series, so that's that's happening, and then we're right around the corner for the North American start of the season.

Yay. But

Hutch has already been into it with the Western Hockey League, so he's like, what are you guys talking about?

I've been doing my double breathing, trying to relax.

Attaboy. And how's it working?

It works. Actually, I I was pretty relaxed last night, funny enough, but the first couple games of the year, I have

to work the double breathing. Pardon me? Yeah. This isn't a joke. You

actually No. I'm not joking. No. No. No. This

as part of your coping.

Yeah. No. It absolutely is. We had another sports psychologist on in Luciano Summerville a while back and we talked about it. And I wasn't joking when I told him that this is something that I do and I've learned over the years.

It was really cool to hear that he does it with the parents that he works with as well. It's a great way to just control the stress a little bit because it is stressful being a goalie parent.

If you have a chance, check out the Devin Cooley interview or go back and listen to the previous episode, Hutch, if we can put that into the show notes, when Devin Cooley was on

Yeah. For sure.

On InGoal Radio, the podcast. Fascinating stuff. Appreciate John Stephenson stopping by, Cam and company, and I can't wait for part two of our parent segment of keeping stats and and that journey. Thanks to David Hutchison, Kevin Woodley. I'm Daren Millard.

We'll talk to you next week on InGoal Radio, the podcast.