InGoal Radio Episode 259 with Phil Osaer

Intro

We're back at it. It's InGoal Radio, the podcast presented by The Hockey Shop Source for Sports Langley, thehockeyshop.com. David Hutchison, Kevin Woodley are here, and we are getting closer. You can kind of feel the buzz in the air. I'm not talking about the Stanley Cup final.

It is Tendyfest. We are within arm's reach of Tendyfest, Woody.

Yeah. How about how about Bill Ranford coming as a featured guest? Not just to speak, not just to sign autographs and do a q and a, but to actually get on the ice and walk us through the net play system that the Los Angeles Kings use. So Billy Ranford, four time Stanley Cup champion, two as a player, Conn Smythe winner with one of those championships, two as a goaltending coach with Los Angeles King, current director of goaltending for the Los Angeles Kings on the ice, then a presentation, then a q and a. TendyFest is always loaded.

Opportunities to get on the ice and try all the latest gear. That's the primary focus. But Cam and the folks over at the Hockey Shop always trying to bring you a little extra, and we teamed up with them to bring Billy Ranford. So if you have an opportunity to be there, Fleetwood, one to 5PM. Bill's gonna be on the ice around 3PM, and then we'll head up to the the sort of classroom area.

There's a large sort of, area for him to speak afterwards. It's just gonna be a fantastic day on so many levels, and we're so excited to add a a four time Stanley Cup champion to that list. And, of course, a Canada Cup MVP in 1991.

Net play. Can you explain for those that don't know? Because we've got a wide range of goaltending people that that follow the podcast.

Well, I mean, basically, anytime you're in and off your post, pucks down at angles, below the bottom of the circles, pucks behind the net. How you move in and out of your post, how you manage that space, how you manage vision on the puck. And if you've noticed, the Kings goalies have done it quite differently in the past. There are some elements to how they do it that limit relative to some other teams and systems, how much they're in a reverse and sort of manage it a little bit differently. And and in doing that, talking to the goalies that have been there really feel like a lot less wear and tear on their body, and they don't feel like they're sacrificing any coverage or vision or mobility.

So Billy's gonna walk us through that system and share that with us and with everybody who's in attendance at TendyFest.

You can even try out the Bauer Shadow Stick or take a look at it. All kinds of equipment are gonna be available to take a a good dive into, put on some gloves, put on some pads, demo it out on the ice. That's all happening. We've got the Bauer Shadow Stick coming up in the Gear Segment brought to you by The Hockey Shop. The NHL Sense Arena feature interview is Phil Osaer, the the head of goaltending, scouting, and development for the Detroit Red Wings.

That is on the way. And the parent segment sponsored by Stop It Goaltending U, the app, Hutch, why let your daughter or son play goal? I'm excited to hear that little bit of knowledge.

I'm excited to have you join in on the conversation. I think we're just gonna open a little opportunity here for lots of people to share with us. I'll I'll share my two cents, but I think it's a really important thing for us all to be discussing, just in general. But, today's feature interview brought it to the forefront for me. So we're gonna have some fun today.

All that, ahead. But let's touch on the Stanley Cup final as we record this. We are about seven hours away from the drop of the puck between the Florida Panthers and the Edmonton Oilers. Canada is hopping with a team back in the Stanley Cup final. Edmonton is jumping, being in the championship series for the first time since 2006.

And we know the Florida Panthers trying to win after falling short in last year's championship series. Each year, it's like we microanalyze the two goaltenders that make the Stanley Cup final. Did we learn anything? Have we learned anything about the two guys? One's back and one is new to this stage.

Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that, and this feels like I'm just reiterating it, the ability to sort of blend and this actually ties right into to the Vegas Golden Knights. The the ability to blend how you play and more importantly, how you defend to the strengths of the goaltenders you employ is to me an important lesson. And I thought it was interesting. Our good friend, Chris Matola, longtime listener and supporter of InGoal at every level, both ingoalmag.com and InGoal Radio Podcast, sent me a clip from an interview that Paul Maurice where he was talking about heading into the cup final about the role Robbie Tallas, their longtime goaltending coach, and again, friend of the program, friend of InGoal, had played not just in the goalie development, but in making sure the systems and the way they play in front of their goalies sort of match. You know, we saw this with Adin Hill last year, at least statistically. Like, he had an incredible playoff run to the cup and winning the Stanley Cup.

Like, having a team that not only defends well, but having a defensive structure that fits the strengths of your goaltender as opposed to this is how we play, goalies figure it out.

There's always gonna be an element to that. But I think if you can sort of reverse engineer it a little bit as a team and make sure, hey. Not only do we defend well, but we don't give up the types of chances that our goalie may might struggle with relative to the types of chances he's best at. Like, to me, that's sort of an underlying theme for the last couple of Stanley Cup runs. And then hearing Maurice talk about it makes me wonder, it's always existed to a degree, but I wonder if we're gonna hear more about this moving forward about teams trying to do this as opposed to let's go get a goalie and he'll figure out how we play.

And the team out of the West for the second straight year has multiple goaltenders make starts on their way to the Stanley Cup final.

Well, this is, I mean, this is a trend outside like, actually, if you look at it this way, take Andrei Vasilevskiy out of the equation. And it's pretty consistent. Colorado, Vegas, Edmonton. I mean, you can go back to remember covering the Stanley Cup final when Cam Ward won as a rookie. Right?

Martin Gerber started it.

No. Florida did it last year.

Right? Florida started with Alex Lyon, who, by the way, we had a fantastic almost hour long conversation with Alex Lyon, future guest on the InGoal Radio Podcast. Can't wait to bring that to you. This is actually more the norm, and Andrei Vasilevskiy is the exception. And so just the top of my head going back, the flurry and Matt Murray switches, like, you need more than one.

And more often than not, you're using more than one to get to the Stanley Cup. Obviously, Bob would be an exception this year even if he wasn't last year.

So one on one equals what, Hutch?

Three? No. Win. 11. 11.

Win. It's 11. Win. See? Oh.

Hey. How how next level

is Woody? I know it's awesome.

But seriously, I just love listening to that because this time of year, what do you hear? You hear goaltending wins championships. You hear defense wins championships. Woody just goes to a next level and he explains how the integration between those two wins championships. Love it, Woody.

I've had too much coffee this morning, so that was all off the cuff. I actually I love these questions because they're different than the ones I get in my other media appearances and they make me think differently. So that was that was on the fly and maybe, hopefully, it made some sense.

Well, that's because Daren Millard's next level too. You don't have him interviewing you on all your other appearances.

We need to make that happen.

Okay. Here's here's a question then from the esteemed Daren Millard. It's the goalie that has to adapt to the system. Right? It they're not making the system adapt to the goaltender because you do have two goaltenders, and I think that would be harder than or easier to to do than change the whole system to work with those guys.

No. I like, I'm not suggesting that these teams are changing everything they do. I mean, at the end of the day, not giving up grade a rush chances is just good for any goaltender. But in the example of the Oilers, that's the area statistically where Stuart Skinner struggles the most, and so they changed that. I I do think is it a bit bit of both, Daren?

And the example I would give you, comes from an interview we had that, I'm pretty sure we ran actually on ingoalmag.com. We'll have to look it up, and I'll put it on the socials if indeed we did. It was part of our relationship with Hockey Canada and a roundtable that we did with Hockey Canada. And I'll never forget that year. They brought on a head coach who had just won a world championships to be part of it.

And there was a little part of me that thought, why do we have a head coach in a goalie coaching panel? It was Andre Tourigny, Bear, who's now, of course, with the Utah Hockey Club or whatever they're going to be called and has proven himself to be a really excellent NHL goaltending coach. He talked or NHL head coach. He talked about his time in Colorado with Patrick Waugh as his head coach and how they would change their emphasis points, maybe not the entire structure of, but their emphasis points as a penalty kill unit that he was responsible for depending on whether it was Semyon Varlamov more athletic or Zach Saros, a little more point to point and spot to spot in his movements in the net. So they would actually change their focus on the PK depending on which goalie was in the net.

So I do think that systems can be built not necessarily around goaltenders, but tailored to the strengths of goaltenders. And you can have a little bit of differences within that even depending on which guy is in that. And to me, that's that's next level stuff. To me, the days of the other way, like, here's our system, you adjust. I don't wanna name names, but I know a couple goaltenders where a team spent assets to acquire them, signed them to extension, and then brought them into a system and asked them to completely change how they moved or how they played.

And actually, in some cases, went away from their biggest strengths and asked them to play to their biggest weaknesses. I think we recognize now that that's silly and that you'd be better to sort of change the structure in front of the goaltender than signing a goaltender long term and saying, okay. Now change everything you do.

Interesting. Because I have heard at trade deadline time, teams won't necessarily go for the best goaltender available because it doesn't match their their system. Things won't mesh. So there there is there is some of that thinking. I I love going down this rabbit hole with you.

Well, that makes sense because at the trade deadline, you're not asking your team to also change how they're gonna defend. Right? But if you're going into a season, I think you can make we're not talking about like, hey. Like, if this guy's in net, we're we're playing a one three one. If this guy's in net, we're playing a one four.

Like like, we're not changing the entire structure. I think it's key points within the zone, within the system in terms of how you defend. Again, why have a goaltender if you're gonna ask him to play to his biggest weaknesses? Why not tailor things in front of him to make sure you're playing to his bigger strengths, especially if we're not talking about radical changes and more subtle differences?

Gear

Great stuff. Let's slide over to the Hockey Shop, for our Gear Segment, and it is it is pretty. The Bauer Shadow Stick.

It it might be sexy.

It's it's gorgeous. I it it does look really good. And It's hot. We're we're having some fun with because there's a great piece that's coming out. A little promo from from Woody who's dancing with a stick.

But, man, if if you're looking at sticks, the Bauer Shadow Twig, it it jumps.

Yeah. It definitely it jumps off to the point where I did start dancing and there are is some hilarity ensues, most of it at my expense because I think dancing needs to have air caps around it anytime we talk about Woody. Listen. There's a lot of new elements to this stick. There's a lot of new custom options available in this stick.

Cam hints at them. We're gonna talk about them coming out about how you need to check with him in order to access them, but let's just let Cam. Let's first let's go right to Cam. Cam, explain to us. Boot Bauer new shadow stick.

Sexy. But talk about, you know, fashion is cool. We wanna know about function too.

Here is the Gear Segment brought to you by The Hockey Shop. Thehockeyshop.com. Source for Sports Langley. Cam, Woody?

Welcome back to The Hockey Shop Source for Sports, where we're in Goal Utopia. With Cam Matwiv. Yes. And we continue our breakdown of the all new Bauer Shadow line with twigs, sticks. And, oh my goodness, Cameron, this thing is light. I think he How light is it, Cam?

I think he really likes his stick. The lightest. I can tell you it's under 600 grams. I can tell you that it's 10 grams lighter in equivalent sizing versus any of their previous models. I can also tell you that it comes in nice shiny poppy colors like we're seeing right here.

Oh, She pops alright. So what's different about this and the mox stick? So let's start with the addition of extra sizing in senior. So you are holding right now a 24 inch senior stick.

Did not exist in the previous.

Did not exist.

What was the 24 inch?

Intermediate sizing. So what's changed a little bit and is falling with the trends of that we're seeing in, you know, goalie in general is that that sizing and the paddle is coming down, definitely not up. Laurent Brossoit

could use this stick. I think he does use this stick, 24 inch paddle.

So, again, we have some pro validation upon, again, that shorter paddle getting into that lower crouch in those situations, especially once the attack is coming.

He's got really long arms.

And he's got really long arms.

We'll save that for another day.

Yes. So stock curves, you're gonna see p 34 and p 31.

Okay. So hold on. P 34 is? This is a p 34, right?

No. It's p 31.

P 31. Okay.

So their stock curve has been P31, quite a bit of hook that would be very similar to the P4 curve from CCM, also the twist curve from Warrior, all along the same lines But now again, that addition of that p 34, so that heel based curve.

Do you have one?

Do I have one? I have one in my hand right. Show the good folks at home what a p 34

Show the good folks at home what a p 34 looks like, Cameron.

So we can see that Compare comparison, your style.

Contrast, compare, contrast, compare, contrast. So again contrast, Cam.

Having something that's at a little bit straighter, I actually prefer this style of curve over the p 31 For playing the puck is you can get it up and onto the boards a little bit easier, whereas you're getting a lower harder pass with that p 31.

Done the videos of you shooting pucks, Cam. I don't think it really

matters. They're pretty good.

Okay.

So overall Ergos spine, again, makes its return. So this is where the lightweight stick is basically a lot of it is coming from is because we have taken so much material off of the back of that stick itself. Including down into the blade.

Now this was That's correct. This was part of mock as well, no?

Spine was, yes. But the amount that's now

So into the blade is new?

Yes. About how much? Percent.

How much into the blade? Okay.

That's correct.

I was a little

into the blade. That's correct. So again How do you tape this bad boy? With tape?

So like just like little air gap in there? You say, oh, okay. Just checking. I haven't used one, so

So we can see Kevin tape the stick maybe later. Overall, again, Kevin's been commenting about the balance of the feel of

the I mean, it's not just that it's light, it's that there's a pretty good like, your balance point on this thing is let's see. Can I do it? Probably not. It's it's close to the handle. Correct. And you still have their grip tech in terms of for a nice grippy area for your hand placement itself.

Correct. And you still have their grip tech in terms of for a nice grippy area for your hand placement itself.

Right. We've seen sticks we've seen sticks that are light in the hands but really bottom weighted, so they feel heavier. This that your balance point is, you know, just like right about here, which is, you know, like within a hand grip from the pack. And shorter shaft as well. This is sort of getting back to that, you know, sort of carry price preference for playing the stick.

But you still have a longer stock shaft than what you would in the Vapor Sticks. So Vapor Sticks remain shorter.

So this one is longer than a Vapor. Okay.

That's correct.

It just feels short to me.

So some cool notes here and especially with the release of the new Shadow is we got custom options. So a cool little feature and we're gonna let the cat out the bag here a little bit. Trigger grips are now available from Bauer.

Well, hold on. Where's the cat?

So custom. You have to contact us. Custom

trigger grips available for order?

Yeah. Minimum is our three.

With just three? Minimums

are three.

I don't got to order, like, 12?

No. Well, you can if you want to,

but Trigger grips. Trigger grip. Different paddle? Yes. Like shoulder shapes?

Yeah. We can show a little image of what exactly what the shoulder shape will be here.

Trigger grips.

Trigger grips.

Just one option? Like, just pick a trigger, you get a trigger, or is there multiple different shapes and sizes?

One trigger option. Okay. But against Location or is it just fixed? Fixed position.

Okay. Still I'm I'm still intrigued.

Wow. Some additional curve options Not as available in years past. So

So we're truly taking custom to another level with the new Bauer Shadow Stick.

We are. But it also is available in the Vapor Sticks as well. But that said, if you wanna learn more about that, give us a call (604) 589-8299 or 1-800-567-7790 or send us off a message. You can do that via the website at thehockeyshop.com as well. Again, something's available custom.

You might see some stock ones on the wall very, very, very soon. We can talk about that when it comes in. But, the new shadow stick. Wow. Bauer Shadow Supreme Stick Light Custom Purdy.

That's good stuff. You and you guys have so much fun with that. Then check out the YouTube presentation on the InGoal page for more on the Bauer shadow stick, but let's let's push the peanut down the the aisle a little bit. I don't know what that means.

But I've never heard that expression.

I just made that. And no nobody's ever heard But that expression let's push that peanut down the aisle a little bit.

Okay. So the peanut's rolling. I have no idea what that means. But I will say, and Hutch can speak to this too, I got a little excited in there about a couple of different things. Obviously, this is a gorgeous looking stick, and there's a lot of features that are attractive about it.

But the one that really sort of popped the eyes, you know, the big eye emoji, so to speak, was Cam talking about the custom options and the ability to order it with a trigger grip for the first time ever. And it's in you only need to order three. Now the old days, it'd be like six, even twelve before you get that deep into the custom options. They've got a new steep shoulder. They've got a new trigger grip that you can order a custom.

The only catch is, as we discovered Hutch, it's not part of their online system. So you really do need to check-in with Cam.

Yeah. There's just to be clear coming out of that segment and you'll see on the video, there's two levels of custom with Bauer. One, you can go on their website, you can order a custom stick on your own and you can order one. And some of those options are already in there. The two different curves, the thirty one and thirty four, and you can also order two different shoulder options on your own.

But if you want to really do a deep dive, Bauer has what's called an elite custom stick program. And in that program, you have to order through a dealer. You have to call somebody like Cam who has access to making those orders. And if you do that, you get that option of the trigger grip that Woody just mentioned. You also get two extra curve options, a CP 31 and a P 28 g that are a little bit different round toe, heel curves, that kind of thing.

So if you want the full options, as you always probably should, you gotta call a guy like Cam. I see so many questions on the parent groups on Facebook that I talk about. And I literally go in there and just say, call Cam. Call Cam. Call Cam.

Because, that's how you get the great advice.

Yeah. And we should mention his entire crew is all goalies too. So even if you can't get ahold of Cam, everybody that answers the phone in the goalie department will be able to ask answer your questions. I have a question, though. If it's called the Bauer Elite program, does that mean I can still access it?

Well, much like that CCM chest protector that is professional use only, yeah, you can do that too, Woody.

I'm really relieved.

Is this the only trigger grip that's available through custom?

I believe so at this point. Believe so. Yeah. I believe so.

I don't think it'll be the last, though.

We'll have a conversation with Warrior because we've seen remember we did the one with Chris Driedger with the steep shoulder at the at the winter classic where he walked us through that, and I'm like, boy, I wish I could get that accustomed. Though maybe Warrior's got something coming, but right now, as far as I'm aware, the Bauer one is the only one that, you know, Joe average beer leaguer like myself can go and order custom. And I love again, I love it. You know, we all like the idea of a trigger grip, and we all wanna try it. And listen, three sticks is not cheap.

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie there, but it wasn't that long ago that custom orders and remember, you can design it too, like custom colors, custom as Hutch mentioned, curves, like, you're you're getting deep into the weeds here with what you can do with this stick. But in the past, you know, it'd be 6 and even 12 minimum order. And if you haven't had an ability to try something, that gets a little bit tough. Hopefully, hopefully, they'll have some of these options available at TendiFest so people can try them and then order three of their own.

And let's be clear, the online stick program, you can order one, but it's this elite custom program you have to order three.

Oh, thank you for that. So you can still get custom. You can still get shoulder shape, all kinds of different things, but into that that new steep shoulder and that new trigger grip. Just the trigger grip.

You can get the steep shoulder online for one as well, Woody. It's just the trigger grip.

The new steep shoulder? They've got

a new I believe so.

Yep. It's really steep.

Well, the steep shoulder Bob esk. Yeah. That's gonna get a whole bunch of attention here in in the Stanley Cup final coming up.

Yep. We've had that article on before. Go check it out in goalmag.com if you wanna know all about Bob's steep shoulder and how many goalies around the league have copied it, including Chris Driedger. We've got videos of both of them.

Ah. Marc Andre Fleury too.

I wonder what Bauer's trigger grip will look like compared to mine, the one that I just cut in. I wonder which ones that are

I think you should I think we need to take a photo of yours, Daren, and put it up on the InGoal social so everybody can see what you do.

I love I I like I draw it out. I sand it down. I tape it up. It's it's good.

It's I'm not allowed to use power tools.

I'm not allowed to use power tools in my house. It's something about the hospital and likelihood of it Probably a in the emergency ward. So

Probably a good thing.

I can't make my own.

Parent Playbook

Check out the YouTube version of the Gear Segment over at the InGoal page. We've got our Sense Arena feature interview coming up with Phil Osear. We've got we've our parent segment brought to you by Stop It Goaltending U, the app. I wanna get into this. Can we do the parent segment now?

And I just wanna or would you rather do it after Phil? Because there there's a connection between the between the two

segments. Only slightly. Only slightly. So I if we do the parent segment now, we're just teasing him a little bit.

Okay. Let's do that. Stop It Goaltending U app. Awesome stuff. You you talk about going down, and Hutch made this point.

It's a rabbit hole with Woody. It's an it's an ant colony on Stop It Goaltending U, the app, because you can go all different places on that wonderful, tool for goaltending that is now working with the InGoal Magazine.

Yeah. No. And and it kinda fits Hutch's theme this week. Why should I let my son or daughter be a goalie? Because you get to access really cool stuff.

Beyond the pads, beyond the gloves, there are so many resources out there for goaltending. And I would say that none better than InGoal Magazine. And, of course, what happens when you get right right there with us, like like, the two titans of the industry would be the Stop It Goaltending U app. And now when you buy the Stop It Goaltending U app, you get immediate access to a subscription to InGoal Magazine, ingoalmag.com, and all our unique content. The guys at Stop It Goaltending U, Brian Daccord and his team, they have and this is the beauty too.

It doesn't if if they love it, you can go down the rabbit hole or in my case, the ant farm, whatever Hutch wants to call me with my deep deep dives. You can dig in as much as you want and spend as much time as you want learning new things through the app. Or on a continuous basis, you can just do a minute a day with their quick hits. You can dive into every different level, every different sort of discussion point, and you can just take it a bit a day at a time. Either way, whether you deep dive or just spend a couple of minutes a day, you're going to become a better, more intelligent, more well rounded goaltender as a result.

There's so much in there, and it's not designed to keep you this isn't this isn't a social media app where the algorithm just lures you back in like you have to keep coming like it's addictive. You can really if you want, just get in, get better, and get out. Immerse yourself in goaltending like the options are all there. It's a great tool for young goaltenders. It's a great tool for parents and a great tool for for goaltending coaches as well.

So Stop It Goaltending U. The app now teamed up within InGoal Magazine. A subscription to the other and no better way to get better as a goaltender than our partnership.

So somebody has a young son or daughter and they wanna play goal and you're researching the heck out of this and you've come across InGoal Radio Podcast. They want the answer. Why let little Johnny, little Susie play goal?

Well, I'm gonna ask you that question in a second, Daren. But it it was sort of led by listening to Phil's, interview today, and I'm hoping we can turn this into a little bit of a back and forth with us and with the listeners, and I mean that over time because I think this is such as an important topic. And and, I I won't get into why Phil's interview, tweaked this for me. I think you'll hear that when when you listen to it later today, but it's a problem everywhere. We don't have enough goaltenders and often we hear about the elite side of things, worrying about who's the next great goaltender for Canada, for The United States and so on.

And sure, if we want great goaltending, we need more goaltenders. If we want great players, they have to face great goaltenders. So this is a development issue for all of hockey. More importantly, I just believe that goaltending is incredible. And just like any sporting organization like tennis or pickleball or golf or whoever wants their numbers to grow for the same reason.

They want people to enjoy their great sports. I want more kids to enjoy the great position of, being a goaltender from house league all the way up to beer league. And it's not just about the NHL. So what can we do about it? The quick change gear that USA Hockey is trying, awesome idea.

Let more kids try the position. Small ice games, that's awesome because a five year old kid does not wanna be all alone on the ice 200 feet from where the action is happening. There's all sorts of great solutions out there, including trying to look at, you know, how we're gonna make this position more affordable. We need to keep working towards all of those things. But I wanna ask today, as we've mentioned, why do you let your son or daughter play goal?

Flip that for a second. It drives me crazy when I hear people say, including in interviews on our show, I'd never let my son or daughter play goal. And even when it's said half jokingly, guys, I think it sort of reinforces a stigma that hurts all of us. Not to mention the old goalies are crazy one. I think it hurts all of us.

And I don't just mean goalies because, again, the game needs goalies. So we need to try and stop all that. And for me, beginning the conversation in a more positive way that we can work towards is to ask that question, why do you let your son or daughter play goal? Now look, the overwhelming answer, especially on this show because I'm preaching to the choir, is probably gonna be because they wanted to and I want them to be happy. Absolutely.

That's the perfect answer and that's I hope what your answer is. But beyond that, let's just frame it now. What if you were talking to a parent who is against it? What are the positives? I'm only gonna bring up a couple of them.

I'd like you guys to come up with your own, but I'll share a couple of mine. It's the safest place on the ice. I'm thankful that our son is a goalie every time we watch a hockey game for that reason alone. I'm not saying it's perfectly safe, but the gear's better than it ever was. Pucks don't hurt like they used to.

In fact, I completely understand where it came from. We had maskless goaltenders. That was crazy. Even having your younger kid play goal in road hockey is safer safer today. But now you watch a game, guys, in the playoffs, we see so many players out there soaking shots in front of the net.

Who's the crazy people in the game today? Who's risking getting hurt from a shot now? Not the goalies. Goalies aren't getting run head first into the boards. They don't have to live in fear of that blindside hit in the open ice.

They rarely have to deal with a fight or even a scrum after the whistle. And again, there's challenges we know, but overall, I don't go to the rink worried about my kid's safety. So that's one. Another thing I tell other parents is that I think goalies develop incredible personal skills. We often hear people talk about the lessons that the game teaches us that are gonna help you later in life.

Dealing with pressure, being the last line of defense, coming back after a goal or a tough game. Forwards and defense just don't get the same opportunities in that regard, and that is one of the things that makes it tough, but I think it's one of the things that makes it great.

Hard work, perseverance, working towards a goal, all kinds of things like that. And again, I'm preaching to the choir, but I think anybody would tell you that goalies get those lessons more than any other player on the ice. Dealing with pressure, being the last line of defense, coming back after a goal or a tough game. Forwards and defense just don't get the same opportunities in that regard, and that is one of the things that makes it tough, but I think it's one of the things that makes it great. I hear a lot of people saying that's the reason they don't want their kid playing goal.

But guys, does football have a problem finding quarterbacks? Do they not face the same kind of pressure and scrutiny? Does baseball have a problem finding pitchers? I know for the young kid levels, they do a little bit, but there's a lot a lot of pitchers on rosters in the major leagues. We don't have a problem finding them in that respect even though it's a huge pressure position just like being a goaltender.

So that's my second reason I tell other parents. The third one, I think it's amazing that you're part of an exclusive club. You're doing things that others don't wanna do and maybe I'm arguing against myself a little bit here, but the exclusivity and knowing that not everybody can do what you can do is kinda special. The game within the game, I think, is special. Seeing two goaltender skate past each other mid game, tap gloves as they're going for a break or something.

I think there's pretty something kinda cool about the goalie union and that group that we're part of. As players are out there on the ice, scrumming and chirping each other, and we like to get involved in that a little bit too. There's this special mutual respect amongst goalies that I really love. So so those are three, and it's fun. There's number four for you.

And obviously, this should probably be reason number one, whether it's shutting down a breakaway, a great windmill save, the cool gear Woody mentioned. We've heard our guests tell all the reasons why they started playing goal. And Woody, I'm so glad that you asked that question of almost every guest because I think we should reinforce on why they wanted to be a goaltender. It's just plain fun. Sense Arena that we will talk about, I think it's awesome.

It's an unintended benefit is that we can get our parents. We can get other kids to try it. Sense Arena, think you should toss in a windmill save competition to illustrate how fun being a goaltender is. That'd be pretty cool. So those are reasons I tell parents who mention that they don't think that their kid should be a goaltender.

I would love to know what other listeners think. Please email me podcast at InGoalmag dot com. We are gonna keep up on this theme and how we can recruit more goaltenders. Tell me your reasons. Kevin and Daren, what do you think?

I love being part of every game, every play. I I think that's Yes. That's really neat that you're not waiting for three shifts for your kid to come back out on the ice when you're when you're and I know there's tandems and your kid's not gonna play every game. But at the younger levels, there's usually only one goaltender. You can watch your child play every minute of every game and get that experience, on on the ice and and be able to learn the game in that regard.

Not be if if they don't be a goaltender forever, they still are learning the game from a firsthand perspective.

And I do think Hutch mentioned the small area games and some of the initiatives by USA Hockey. Listen, I got a I got a front row seat for some of the things that they're working on and doing down there. And I think it's important because a lot of the pushback is, you know, especially at the really young ages, that puck does go down to the other end and it stays there, the little pack following the puck around for a long time and your kid's and, like, that's you know, we see the video as a parent's bit. This is why you don't let your parent your kid be a goalie in the video of the kid just sitting there bored talking to himself for the whole game. So I think we need the adults to get out of the way and let some of the people that have studied this do their thing in terms of the importance of small area games.

Small area smaller nets are something that was discussed as well. We can get maybe we save that for a future episode. I'm with you. There is so much fun, and sometimes the adults in the room need to get out of the way and let the kids have that fun and recognize that goaltending is a big part of the fun. And even, like, to your point, Daren, like, when there is two goalies, let them both play every game anyways.

Maybe not every minute of every game, especially at the young ages. Let them play every game. Rotate whether it's by period or by ten minute segments. We've heard it work at multiple levels. There is no need for, you know, mom and dad to pack up their young goalie and drive two hours to a road game to watch them sit on the bench.

It's absurd at a young age, and I think we do need there are so many great things about this position that I love. And the community you get being a part of it, including here at ingoalmag.com and all the other, you know, sort of tools that we talk about. There's a community feel to that. That matters to me. But I do think at the younger ages, we need to make sure we give that an opportunity to shine through.

The other part that I love is is just being part of the outcome of the game. Like, your your child has a chance to be the not score three goals necessarily, but save the game at the other end. And and if it doesn't go your way, you can blame the five guys in front, five people in front. But I I I think that's that's neat too that you you get to have an impact on the game.

I think that's huge, but we have to find a way to communicate that to people who aren't goalie parents because a lot of them don't want their kids to be goalies for the very same reason. They imagine themselves in that pressure packed situation and how they would feel. But again, everybody wants their kid to be the quarterback, so I don't see what the difference is there.

Yeah. It's half full, half empty. Right? How you how you approach that?

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think let's keep working on all these things to make it more fun and make it better and make people want to be goaltenders. But I also think we really need to find how do we talk to the rest of the the hockey community. So let's stop the conversation about I'd never let my kid be a goaltender and let's stop the conversation about goalies being crazy too.

Let's focus on these positives.

Oh, that's a big one too. Like, you know, the the amount of times we hear, oh, you're normal for a goalie. Well, go guess what? Like Yeah. Like, well, myself being the accept most of us are.

Like, that stigma's gotta end. Same with, you know, like, throw the kid that can't skate in that. That's you know, how many there were some great stories at that at that symposium about, like, the best athlete on the team, the top scorer had to go in and play goal and try goalie and came away with an absolute new respect for it because it is one of the more physically demanding positions on the ice. Not in a negative way, in that, like, you're going to get a workout and you are going to excel as an athlete as you develop in the position.

Zach White Cloud, defenseman for the Vegas Golden Knights, told me a story. He played the goal at an outdoor practice with his buddies one time, and this was when he was in college, Bemidji. And he said his hips were sore for two days, and he was just bagged, like, sucking wind for three days. He just it was so hard. And this is the guy that top physical shape and ends up playing in the National Hockey League.

So good point. Reminded me of that story. Or if you if you are really on the fence, let your son or daughter try out NHL Sense Arena and give that a try and see if they really like it. And maybe you can come to an agreement on that side, or you try it and you realize how much fun it can be stopping pucks. That's an opportunity.

NHL Sense Arena it's a sponsor of our feature interview every week.

Sure is. And it just kinda rolls right into what I was talking about, doesn't it? Every week we talk about how Sense Arena helps you read shots, helps you read plays, helps you develop hand eye coordination, helps you become a better goalie. And look, that's all true because you can train any day, anytime without any ice. It's an incredible tool, and we know it's used right up to the National Hockey League.

But let's not forget that hockey's fun and that's why we play the game and NHL Sense Arena is no different. Putting on the headset and walking into your favorite NHL team's dressing room is fun. Playing on an outdoor rink or in the biggest rink most of us will ever skate in, seeing our name up on the jumbotron as you can in NHL Sense Arena is fun. Joining in on their competitions like the NHL Stanley Cup mode that they have right now, and it's gone on to the final round. All those competitions and things that they've added into NHL Sense Arena is fun.

There are so many features that make NHL Sense Arena fun that you almost forget your training. And isn't that what we hope for as parents? I remember guys watching a game as a young kid, and I mean, like, six years old here, and I'd be tossing a ball against the wall trying to make big saves during the game. Like, I was in the National Hockey League. I was having fun.

That kind of fun has come as far as the gear has. If NHL Sense Arena was available in the seventies, I'd have been wearing the Sense Arena headset in every break of the game I was watching, whether it's intermissions, TV, timeouts, or what have you. If I had NHL Sense Arena when I started playing goal, wow. Never would have taken it off. It's a great way to foster a love for the game and for the position.

And as Daren said, even your family can try it so you can share your love of the game as they learn what it is that you do out there on the ice. So head over to sensearena.com to learn more or to the Meta Quest store in your headset. There is even a game pass option now so that you can hop in there, give it a try without making that full commitment of a year subscription. But I really think that once you've tried it, you'll love Sense Arena.

Feature Interview - Phil Osaer

Leads us into our feature interview with Phil Osaer. Tell us a little bit about, this gentleman.

Well, I mean, it's kind of fitting that we caught up with him at the USA Hockey National Goaltending Symposium. Steve Thompson, who, runs the goaltending side for USA Hockey, extended that invitation to us. Phil was his predecessor before joining the Detroit Red Wings as a director of goalie scouting and development. So a great chance for us to talk about the state of the game. The state of the game in United States.

We hear about fifty one and thirty one, the program design. You know, they're they're lofty goals, set a really high target. More than half of the minutes played in the NHL, 51%, and the PWHL by the year 2030. That was the goal, and they started the grassroots program to get it there. And so when it comes to development of goaltending, few are as well versed right down to the grassroots as Phil Osaer.

So a chance to catch up with him as part of USA Hockey's first ever national goaltending symposium, made a ton of sense, and it was a conversation that I think a lot of parents and a lot of young goalies and a lot of goalie coaches really need to listen to.

Feature interview on InGoal Radio, the podcast, the NHL Sense Arena feature interview with Phil Osaer.

We are at the USA Hockey National Goaltending Symposium Expo. First time ever, exciting event, and even more exciting because that we finally get to have on the show, friend of InGoal, but first time guest, Phil O'Saer from the Detroit Red Wings. Just quickly, title role with the Red Wings, and then we're gonna get into the past and the history. Just so let our listeners know the basics without no secrets, just what the job is.

Yeah. Thanks a lot for having me, Kevin. I'm listening to the podcast religiously. Really like what you guys do, it's an honor to be part of it. And I'm, I'm excited about this.

Cast my titles. I'm the head of goaltending, scouting, and development with the Red Wings. And in my role, it's it's kind of, everything goal goaltending. It's really fun to be part of an organization. I grew up in Detroit, and to be able to be part of the franchise is is an honor.

I really I really like it. I'm fortunate.

Okay. Path to there and tie it back into what we see here. Obviously, we're with USA Hockey, obviously, in the in the national the job that we see Steve Thompson doing right now.

Right.

What you're seeing here was part of a vision that you started and were a part of. To see it come to fruition, what does it mean, and what do you think the benefits are?

Oh, goodness. It's the benefits, we hope we see in multiple levels. We hope that the youth hockey culture continues to grow and the kids have a great experience. That's number one. We hope that the coaches continue to continue to build, a confidence and, continue to have a real growth mindset and helping the goalies and and helping the goalies environment, helping them learn the techniques of the position, helping them understand and stay ahead of the curve as the position evolves, whether it's equipment, you know, your guys' equipment segment.

So so beneficial because it's always something there's always something new coming out, and we want to help our coaches get that information, have the good have and have the ability and the confidence to articulate it to goalies. Whether you played the position or you didn't or you're just a parent who never even played the sport, but wants to be able to help their child or their they want a coach, know, like that's we want to create a community and a path so they can do that. They can continue to to learn and kind of build on the people for us. And it's like, for me personally, I had, I knew that I wanted to coach when I was done playing. And I was really fortunate that our assistant coach in college, this is Jeff Blasch, who's gone on to coach in the NHL and and Blasch was running, USA Hockey camps.

So I was 22 and I got kind of got to be in there. They and helped coach there while I was playing and that that led into being able to be part of the national the national team camps and is a one week camp where you get to evaluate, get to coach, and get to meet people. And really, I'm forever in debt to USA Hockey because of those opportunities. It kind of led me, to almost every job that I've I've had in hockey. So when I was done playing, I was I got a job with, Cedar Rapids Rough Riders, and Mark Carlson is the longtime head coach there.

He hired me without an interview because of the contacts I'd made at USA and other people vouched for me. So I was so grateful there. And then I went on to Michigan State, and again it was, you know, a hockey contact that in part was due to, you know, being part of USA hockey. It's different volunteering and going to things. So when I was at Michigan State, the ADM program had decided that they wanted to add somebody in a goalie role.

And I was in the right place at the right time. And I frankly went up to, the person who's running at the time. His name was Kevin McLaughlin. I went up to Kevin and said, like, if you're doing this, I want to know what it is and I want it. And because I'd been there so much, there was a little bit I'd coached a handful of the Holinka teams and maybe that's familiarity.

And Kevin was he was great. He allowed he allowed me to sort of carve out whatever it was because the beauty of getting a job that no one's had is, you know, like you can't mess it you can't mess it up because no one, you know. So, I was I was really fortunate that way to, be able to start and try to create a program. Ken Martell was a technical director. Bob Mancini yeah, a funny story about Bob Mancini.

So Bob Mancini is now the executive director assistant executive director and, oversees the whole program now. But he was, when I was playing, he was at the NTDP. And I I got lucky to get to go to the tryout camp. And in that particular tryout camp, I I didn't make the team, but I had a good camp. And so my dad still holds a grudge against Bob.

He's like, don't know how you can still work with that guy. He's a great guy and Bob's become an amazing mentor. So, like, to be backing around with those with those guys, it's, it's it really is fun. But they just they allowed they allowed us to build something and we looked around. We we went through and talked to people in Canada and Finland and Sweden and we knew that we were behind in a structured goalie coach development program, but we didn't wanted to try to learn from other countries' successes, and then also some of the hiccups that had gone on in other countries.

So with that, we we built something that was built in with our coach education program, but it was separate. So we have a bronze level, but it counts towards your coach, your normal coach education or your certification is the word I was looking for. And then, you know, and it it kind of culminated with this. We did a gold program during the level five symposium in 2018 in Lake Placid, and that was kind of the first one. And Steve was a part Steve Thompson, who has a job now, he was a part of it as our Pacific person.

And so was so many of these people that are here, they were there ten years ago when we had our first get together in Plymouth and, you know, and integrated with the NTDP and what was going on there. And it's just been it's it's been almost ten years now that it's been going on in the works. But one thing that's clear is there's goalie coach education for years and years and a lot of people like Keith Elaine and, Rondi Gregorio and they're here now and we were just able to

You formalized it and nationalized it.

Exactly. Yeah. And that and that to me, it's like I sit here and with you and like see this. It's it's really cool to see because it's it's been a a labor of love for a lot of people, and it it's kinda coming to fruition, hopefully, continues.

There's gotta be a little bit of pride there too, to have been to have been a part of the the grassroots starting of of, like I said, of nationalizing it and making it this scale. And now, I mean, I'll throw a couple numbers at you. The one I'll start with the good number. 2,200 plus bronze level certified goalie coaches in The United States.

My goodness.

That jumped out to me.

I didn't know it was that number. Yeah. That that's incredible. That's really cool. Steve's done a a really good job kinda making making those clinics available.

And I know it's and maybe it's a question for Steve now, but, like, you you were part of, like, developing those levels. Right? And and that national goaltending coach program. What does that mean? To to me, from the outside, I'm like, that means that there's that many people out there at minor hockey, whether it's head coaches that got the certification.

Like, is that to follow the Swedish model? Build more good goalie coaches, you will get good more good goalies. Is that kinda am I right on that?

What that means to me is there's 2,200 practices going on in our country with a goalie coach out there or someone who's gonna help coach the goalies. And that to me, that's gonna have more goalies.

Yeah. Exactly. And that's they have those type of numbers. What that means to me is there's 2,200 practices going on in our country with a goalie coach out there or someone who's gonna help coach the goalies. And that to me, that's that is that's gonna have more goalies.

It's gonna be a better experience. You know, sometimes you watch you watch a tough youth hockey practice, and you wonder why the kid wants to be a goalie. As you know, we reflect back some of the stuff that we went through as kids, know, it's kind of like I don't wonder why I want stand there. Know, it's a borderline ton of sickness. Know, we love this position so much.

But you know, when we have that type of number of coaches that are out there, it's just it's gonna be a better youth hockey experience. And all the other players are gonna benefit too. Our shooters are gonna be shooting at better goalies. So they're gonna get better because ultimately, we always wanna come back to this. We wanna be we wanna be part of American hockey players continuing to get better.

You know? And it's not just the goalies, but what we can do is help the goalies. And we have better goalies that's gonna force ever it's gonna raise the level. And that's, you know, that's the goal.

Yeah. And I don't wanna go too down too many there's so many different tangents we could go down, but we I saw a presentation this morning. I know you did as well about, you know, putting some data behind practices and how how much it wasn't relevant to what happens in a game. And so not only are we hurting goalies when we do that, but I I love the point that if we're gonna sell better practices to the head coaches, allowing them to understand that it also doesn't benefit their shooters to be shooting in unrealistic situations is a big part of that too.

It is for sure. And that's like, you know, we we joke like goalies are hockey players too, and they're they're part of the team, And they need to be great in practice. They need to try to stop every shot, you know, all the time. And you think about, I don't know how you replay, but it would take like the first fifteen minutes and not go down and call it warming up. Know, it's like that that archaic culture is is gone finally, you know, and our and our goalies can be know, they're gonna be ready when they get on the ice, and these are all things that the coach can help them with.

The other number I wanna talk to you a little bit that I'll be honest, it shocked me and not in a good way. 4%. Only 22,000 goalies. As much as 2,200 goalie coaches is a good thing. 22,000 goalies amongst the total registration in in USA hockey.

Like, is it because like, have we built a stigma where it's too expensive and nobody wants their kid to be in there because they're getting hit and they don't get attention, they don't get focus in practice? How do we like, in a lot of that's been a lot of topic of conversation. How do we fix this now? But that that number jumps out to me. Like, four percent is low.

And that that there are organizations that are having trouble finding them. Like like you said, we we love this.

Right. Yeah.

We need to find ways to get more kids to love it. How do we do it?

Exactly. Well, it's you know, when you look at that number, that is alarming because it should be, you know, 10%. If you look at the ratios of Right.

Two for every 20.

Right. That that's what then that's what our goal should be there or

12 I at least 10% to sell subscriptions.

Yeah. Let's to the root of this. We need more kids. But I'm a I'm a real big believer in the proper use of the quick change pads because, you know, I've I've an eight year old and a six year old and, you know, I my nephew plays and I've been around that. Actually back when I was I worked at Michigan State, I helped coach a a I think they were a squirt at the time, a 10U team.

And when you see those kids, when you just ask kids who are try goalie and they're on the ice, they raise their hands. You know? And if you can make it quick and they can do it for ten, twelve minutes.

Before their parents have a chance to come out of the stands and say, no, little Johnny and little Jill, you can't play goal.

Yeah. So there's someone who works on Jason Botterill, who works for Seattle. He's a great guy and he lives in the Detroit area and he has a daughter who's a really good little hockey player. And I was helping coach my daughter's team And I like had the quick change pads. And he's like, don't you do it.

I'm like, I'm gonna let the kids decide. So I carried out there and I could see him just glaring at me in the stands and sure enough, who wants to be goalie? His daughter Angel raises her hand. I'm like, absolutely. Put it on you.

He's just glaring down. I don't think she but I do think that that's a big part of it. And because if we get out if as coaches and parents, if we get out of the way and remember their kids, you're gonna find people that are they enjoy it and they wanna do it and but they don't wanna do it all the time. When you talk eight, nine, 10, 11 year olds, like they want to do a lot of things. And the NHL is littered with stories of goalies who didn't really become full time goalies until they're 10 or 11.

Of course, there's some that have the itch when they're really young. Know, I know that Hutch I don't know him, but just from listening to you guys, sounds like his son just had it from right right from the start. And that's great too, but I think the more environment we can have, the better.

I was gonna say, I mean, there's a story there. I I wanna tell it out of turn. I should probably be checking this with him, but there was a point where he got a little burnt out early, and dad let him walk away completely until his son wanted to come back. There was no force, no nothing. If you don't wanna play, you don't wanna play.

And he came back to it naturally because he missed it for all the reasons that we love it. So, you know, even there even even amongst the ones that start really early, not all of them are end to end.

Yeah. Right. And that's that's really good for him. Mean, I I tell my six year old, you don't you don't have to play. You can stop when you're 18 or 19, you know?

But

50 one and 30.

Yeah.

I now, you start that? Yeah. Like, I I wanna make sure I like, I I should know this, but I sort of leading question. I'm I'm fact checking as I talk to you, but that was my impression.

Yeah. So it was, you know, Ron DiGregorio was, he was the president of USA Hockey at the time when we started to kind of like the allow the goalie program to evolve. And Kevin Rider was a goalie coach at the NTDP. And so Digger, Kevin and I were talking at National, Annual Congress. And as Digger is a great leader, he's like, we need a goal.

And that was what he said. And we're like, you do. So Kevin and I talked a little bit. It's like, all right, we do need to figure out a goal. And there's all these things.

We want coaches. We want better goalies. We want to win gold medals. So you know, that was it's all of that. And then we started, well, the goal would be to be the best in the world.

And that was what our rhetoric was at the time. Like, we want to be world leading. So the only way to be world leading, we felt, was to be have the most in the NHL in the best league. And we thought if we have 51% of the NHL, every other country is not. So that was like, all right.

Now we now we put it far enough out. I got accused of putting 2030 on it for job security. So reevaluate. Yeah. Then but the idea was, and I'm a huge believer in this, is any young hockey player or athlete who aspires to play at the highest level, I want them to embrace that dream and be okay with saying I want to play in the NHL.

There's a lot of a lot of times, you know, well meaning adults be like, know, it's that that's probably not gonna happen.

Right.

But I want us as a hockey community to embrace kids having that dream because if they chase it and they they fall short when they're 19, 20 years old, but they had that experience in life and those friends, it's incredible. And they learn to work hard and do all those things that take it. I think it's great. So I wanted I wanted us to be open and tell our kids like, yeah, you want to make it? Let's we want to help you.

You know, we want to support them. And that's what we wanted as a country to do it. Now, it's of course, if you to get to that point, is it is it a tall ass? Of course, you know? Because there's so many If

you're gonna set goals, make them lofty just like the kids.

Right. Exactly. So, you know, that's why I was there. And, you know, when I hear it referenced, you see Josh Tucker's got, you know, his apparatus at 51 and 30, like, I I always always smile about it. But it was so it was Digger kinda gave us a challenge.

Kevin and I tried to evaluate what we were trying to do, and then we came up with that. And yeah.

So so I listen. Jokes aside about job security, like, twenty thirty makes sense because if you you know? And and Steve walked me through this for an article we ran because there's been some moments this year where you looked at the top 10 and save percentage in the National Hockey League, and I know Steve said it was eight to 10 at one point. I I remember doing the math for an article I did at one point. Was like, I think I had, like, nine of the top 11 and, like, 13 of the top 17 were American goaltenders.

Obviously, a good year even in a time when we're losing the Ryan Millers to retirement and the guys that used to dominate. But you needed it to be by 2030, the other stuff we talked about, the bronze medal programs, there's more kids that have come through having the exposure. Like, it gives a chance for the grassroots to ultimately feed the goal because without it, we're not getting there.

Right. And that was when we came up with the year, we were looking at like, alright, if a if a player's nine years old right now and he's a hockey year, she's a hockey player now, and we wanted to put it when they're going to be 22. Know, we wanted to put it further out. We're like, alright, so let's let's right now create the best environment we possibly can. So the kids that are in it are going to have it.

And then hopefully you have a foundation that it just becomes the norm. So that's what it was. And you know, we get seeing the guys that have made it, with the different paths. I really, really enjoy you have somebody like Jake Oettinger who we're getting the opportunity to watch play now. And you know, great goalie in Minnesota High School, right?

So the program to BU to like kind of that elite elite path. Not everyone gets to do that. And then to, you know, our goalie Alex Lyon who took a diff a much different path. But they get to the same spot and to see those guys doing I mean, obviously, I'd rather see, you know, like seeing Alex's save percentage. That was top, you know, selfishly for our job.

Like, that's what but you like to see them having success. I think it's cool and I love it because it gives our young goalies somebody to look to. Like, that's real tangible.

Right.

You know, for the goalies that are here today, Jake Oettinger would would have been here as well. You know? And there's it it's cool.

Charlie Lindgren, another different path. I'm hoping to connect with him tomorrow for the podcast or Monday after this wraps up. There's there's a lot of different ways to get there. One question I do have, and it's kind of been I haven't seen it talked about directly, but a lot of indirect discussion this weekend about it is early specialization. So as much as we want to make sure we when they are playing goal, there are coaches out there on the ice that have this expertise at least some level.

So they're not just out there telling them to stand up and be patient. Where are where are you on? Like, I know, you know, Steve's got some thoughts and there's some programs that, you know, not having them just be goalies too early. They did like, do you think that's a tendency? Even, you know, when you look at some of the other countries, as they had success, more kids started early.

Does that success stay? Is that a question that everybody needs to answer?

Yeah. That's it is a it's a tough one. As a little sidebar, my my eight year old is in soccer, there's a soccer program that they don't they just rotate through the goalies. I'm always interested in it. Soccer's a little bit evolved because of the the global sport and like that's their theory.

Like there's nothing by 11. And I'm like, well, what about the kid who really just wants to be the goalie? You know? And it's and then you see sometimes we're like, no one wants to be the goalie and they switch mid game. You know?

But they don't have the equipment barrier. So I think that something we can learn from a sport like soccer is there's no reason two, three kids can't play goalie in a game. You know? Like, I think that we need to remember that when we're watching the NHL, that's not the ten year old hockey. And you know?

And if and there's no reason it was we were talking about I think there's some roster requirements that say, oh, if you're labeled as a goal, you can't play out. Like, that's so that's so silly. Like, if a kid wants to take his pads off and put forward equipment on and go play hockey, like, why would we ever get in the way of that?

Right.

Like, know, and We've

we've talked to how many over the years that say, hey, I played both or I played roller hockey in the summer, and that was why, you know, I learned I learned the game from the other side. Right?

Right. And from like, I know I played men's league. I'd like to play out every every once in a while. I get the other you know, get a sub goal, and I wanna play out because it's fun. It's that's our game.

We can't make it where you have to have a specialized goalie because I feel like we're pushing other, know, kids away from the position, and we're limiting them as athletes.

It's fun. So it's something that you when you look at it as kids, I think that if they wanna specialize, that's okay. But we we can't make it where you have to have a specialized goalie because I feel like we're pushing other, know, kids away from the position, and we're limiting them as athletes. Because they're gonna they're whether they're forwards or defenseman, if they wanna play goalie a little bit, even if it is the ten year tier two or tier one, it's like, remember that they're kids and allow them. And I think that that'll help us.

And at the same time, if a kid really if he has he or she has a pass and just wants to be a goalie, allow that too. Because if they just wanted to be a center, we wouldn't get in the way of that.

Do we have a marketing problem? Like, does Goalie has a position to have a marketing problem? Like, and we've talked about the parents. We talked about, you know, the cost of equipment. But even like, you know, I look at I look at what happened in Finland and and they already have the infrastructure from a coaching standpoint, but then Miikka comes along in the NHL and Henrik in Sweden, Bob, Vassy in Russia, like, inspiring the next generation.

Have so many there's so many great American young goaltenders, and I just don't feel like they get the same marketing. Like, know, like, Jake's Connor's probably gonna win his second Vezina trophy, and I don't know that we maybe we do. Maybe I just miss it. Do we have a whole bunch of young kids in Michigan wanting to be the next Connor Hellebuyck?

I think we do have a marketing problem. I think there's a little bit cultural. You know, I I think I take it as a compliment, but I've had a lot of people say you're pretty normal for a goalie. I'm like, what does that put me on the normal scale of life? Yeah.

Like, you know, but I think that there's that we've allowed a stigma to come in that is it isn't good because kids are they're perceptive. Like, they don't wanna be Do you

think the weird goalie is still a stigma that cost kids?

I do. I think that there's some of that and I think it'll perpetuate from the parents on their ride to and from the rink, you know? And I think that that is I think it's hard. It's my mom told me it's the hardest job in the world to be a goalie mom. I think, you know, that pressure and as as youth sports has become way too much based on the results, I think there's parents that they don't wanna be up there in case your kid makes the mistake.

You know? And and I think they push it away from that. And and I think that that stigma and you see at Sweden, know Thomas Magnuson about like they they would have peewee teams with like 12 kids that wanted to be goalie. You know, it was a big part because of Lundqvist and you know, but I do think we can do a better job. You guys do a great job with it.

I think we can do a better job and that's again part of what this we hope this does. You know, things like this, we hope shine a light on how great of a position it is and you know, all all these kids who wanna do it, they're they're just young hockey players. Just athletes who wanna be part of the sport, and we gotta we gotta remember that.

So one of the things that we heard from Sweden, I started a presentation this morning, and it was news to me. And and maybe it's, you know, I'm not a I wanna speak out of turn that even from a coaching standpoint, they're not hammering on stuff until sort of u 16. Like, it's introduced, elements are introduced, but it's not really hardcore technical by the sounds of it until they get a little older as goalies. Like, is there something there you see as as as something we can emulate in North America?

Yeah. I I do. And it was it's funny. Dave Rogalski, just before we started, we were talking a little bit about the fear of getting almost too much in the minutiae of, in his example, a recovery. Like why was goalie A sliding back to the post and goalie B was getting up to his feet?

And Dave's like, does it really matter? Like we're focused, we're worrying about a way the net drive, the drill you saw him out was like a net drive in the positioning and how you're going to play that and how you're to read the release and not over worry about, oh, you got to rotate, you got to do this. You know, there's practice habits you have to have, of course. But I think if we over technical it early, you can you can lose kids, you know, and you can be like, wait, I can't do all those things. And, you know, we joke.

We we know we come up with all these acronyms in our goalie community, you know, for again, come back to job security, mate. But at the same time

We we we we do. We've been saying it for a year. We are gonna ultimately come up with the definitive dictionary of all these terms at InGoal. I promise.

That that'll be great and just get that out to everybody so we can, you know, have that same language. Because when you look at when you start giving that to any young athlete, you can lose them and make it intimidating, which is silly. Like their job is really simple. You know? Right.

Know, it's

We can complicate it a little too. Right. Yeah. And and these things probably all have a place at the right it's about the timing of it. No?

Right. Yeah. It is. And that's something that, you know, I think as in a sports community, we'd be naive to not we'd be naive not to look at like what teachers do and what they do in schools and what they're trying to know. They're professionals that are they're they've been educated in how people learn and you wouldn't see like super super technical things for third fourth graders you know.

But now you get to your sophomore year high school, now it's ramping up and I think that we can we can look at that. And one thing I think that you know you look at someone like Charlie Lindgren and Alex Lyon, he mentioned that they're not they're not the robotic type of cookie cutter goalie, but they grew up playing community hockey here. They played a lot of hockey. They're hockey players first. And I think if and I'd say without without goalie coaching and sometimes good and bad.

But I think that that's something we just allow them to play a little bit more and help them with the fundamentals of being square, cutting, know, being at the right depth. And just to help them them know what that is and know how that feels and be able to be in that position in the game, then they're going to have success. And then if they're getting up with the wrong leg, Okay, you can help them be more efficient. But it doesn't have to be excessively technical until maybe it does when you're really refining, you know.

And without having been through your programs, I'm guessing that sort of bronze, silver, gold, building these philosophies about when is probably part of how you guys are developing this program out. And it probably shifts and evolves over time.

Exactly. And it's, you know, we go back and forth on should we be more in the weeds in these programs? Should we get like really super technical and talk about weight transfer and post integration and do all that? Or should we just help make sure that we're creating the right environment? And I'm a big believer in the right environment.

If you allow the right environment, then the player is going to develop holistically and organically. And then you can refine the technical when they can really comprehend it and they can feel the why.

Because if you allow the right environment, then the player is going to develop holistically and organically. And then you can refine the technical when they can when they can really comprehend it and they can feel the why. So that is like we probably can do a little bit more of the real technical stuff, especially in an event like this. But it is a feeling out process of, you know, what in the feedback from the the participants, you know.

It's like the position itself. It constantly evolves. Exactly. Right. So the curriculum has to evolve, the mindset, the when, as well as the how, all evolves with time.

An event like this, as we sort of bring everyone together, do you think in the future we'll see more technical sharing too? Like, of the on ice? If we had the on ice with Brian Eklund and Scott Clemmensen, like, feel like there's a lot of conceptual right now and also a lot of how to get more goalies involved. I mean, you know, everything we talked about the marketing stuff. In the future, do we see it add some technical stuff from that side or do you deliver that more through the coaching programs?

I would like to say yes. I think we will do more technical stuff here. I think that there's ways and one of the things that I think is very, you know, USA Hockey has done a great job is being innovative in how these things are delivered.

Right.

You know, and I think that there is a layer of being able to watch games and just review and you look at a situation of Stanley Cup game playoff games going on. You know, could have broke down clips Right. As a group and I think everyone would really like that.

Yeah. Clips because there weren't enough scoring chances in any of these. Mean, defense wins championships, think we're seeing again. Right?

Yeah. Exactly.

Okay. So watching hockey, like we talked about, all the coaches here had the game on in the background. Two games, I should say, PWHL championship as well as the the team was celebrating in the corner. They replayed that one. It was cool to watch.

Do kids watch enough hockey?

Well, that's a great great question because they're growing up in a world where they can see the highlights on their phone instantly. And, you know, there there's so much other stuff on TV and platforms. It's they're watching full games. I would like to say they they about my anecdotal belief is no. You know, that that's a little bit of a lost art.

Do you feel like that's a lost art that could I mean, play reading is about recognizing, you know, to my favorite quote from Mitch Korn. Right? It's about patterns. Like like, goalie is a game of patterns, not shots. And watching full games is where you your brain sort of starts to connect those patterns.

And without watching them, you're just seeing the end result or even if it's a save, you don't see the three or four passes that led to it, that created the decision to be in that position and make that save that way.

Right. And I think that that's there's some books, talent, development books that actually bring up certain areas that where a person played tennis and they just watched tennis. So it was on TV. Was all the parents watched. And then when the young athletes started at 10 or 11, they were all very, very technically sound because they'd seen it.

And I think that that's something that watching the games I think listening to the interviews, listening to the commentators, listening to all those things, you're absorbing a lot of information. And the more kids can watch it, the better. You know, I love it when there's a replay on of games during the day and it just like have those things on. And yeah. So I I know that

it's We're telling kids to watch more TV. We're sorry parents, but if it's hockey, it's not a bad thing.

It's hockey. That that that's a rule at our house. No. You can't watch anything, but you can't watch the hockey game. So yeah.

Well, and it is interesting. Like, I do think it can be like, almost subconscious. We don't all have to be a member of Thatcher Demko when he first got drafted talking about keeping a notebook and watching the games and making notes about how goalies played certain situation. We don't need it doesn't have to be a study session every time. Just watching the game will inherently allow you to pick things up.

Yeah. Absolutely it will. You'll learn different things and I also believe that it it'll it'll feed that passion that you have, know, because it's exciting. Like I it's still exciting. Like every time I watch, whether I'm at an NHL game or watching on TV or junior games, whatever.

Was at the Memorial Cup on, I went to see London Knights and all like that that was fun. Like it feeds that passion for what we're doing. Know? And it's even if it is work, but it's still it's a lot of fun to watch it. And the kids that watch it, you know, there's there's a lot of effects.

Of course, they're learning, but they're also kind of developing that, you know, that love continue to develop that love for the sport.

Okay. So now I usually ask this at the beginning as I get to know you. So you've heard it many times before, but you the passion comes through clearly. Yeah. Talked about the aspirations and all those things.

Where where did like, to have this much passion for this position for as long as you've had, Phil, where'd it start?

Oh, it's so I started playing hockey when I was two or three, and I didn't like it. So I retired at 3.5 or four and came out of retirement because on the playground, a kid beat me in basketball and beat me in baseball. He was like, I'm better at every sport. His name is Sean Breton. And I came home and I'm like, dad, I gotta play hockey because I wanted to be better than Sean Breton at something.

So my dad immediately came out of retirement at six. But my uncle was he was my dad's he's my dad's younger brother. He was kind of like the cool uncle. He lived in California, but he'd been a goalie. And because of him, I kind of wanted to try it.

I love the equipment. And they wouldn't let me play goalie, so my dad had to be the coach so I could be the goalie. And I was going to do both. And I think I let another guy play three games the first year, then maybe one game the next year. And then my dad stayed the coach so I could be the goalie.

And then I just loved it from there. So it's a little bit of equipment. It's a little bit because I looked up to my Uncle Mike. And it was a I played hockey a lot because Sean Breton kept beating me in other sports.

I love it. Who who became your guy? Like because because it's interesting. Like, you're in this role now. You're in the development role.

First at USA Hockey, now obviously with the Red Wings. So I'm curious how your path, like, when you went from emulating somebody you saw on TV and trying to make those saves, whether it was on the ice or on the street playing road hockey to a technical coach? Like, this kinda ties into the when and where we start delivering coaching, but how much of it is informed by your experiences? And what were they those experiences?

So when I was when I was come when I was, young and watching, the Red Wings had, Glenn Hanlon and Greg Stefan were the Wings goalies, and they were good. And then Tim Cheveldae. But the cool goalie in the NHL was John Vanbiesbrouck. He had the sick pads. He was playing for the Rangers.

He made these ridiculous glove saves, the windmill saves.

Yeah.

So I Beezer became my guy. That's what I wanted to and then my dad would make me I wouldn't I wasn't allowed to do this. He called it showboating glove saves. So I'd have to catch it and like just hold it in. So that took me a while before I was able to actually like try to emulate Beezer.

But so he was kind of the guy. I always have followed the Red Wings and love them with that. And then when it came to like, I didn't really have a goalie coach. You know? Like, my uncle would help me a little bit.

My dad learned the position and tried would help me because he had played like played defense. But when the techno my love for the technical coaching came in as I was I I would say I was like 16 or 17. And I started this I had one goalie coach who helped me a kind of a his name was Sean Rosecrant for Little Caesars. And he was really about like the athletic part of it. He'd have us doing somersaults and like, you know, different reaction stuff.

And then he had a little bit of technical stuff. But then I was 19 when I went and saw Brian Daccord. My agent had sent me to see Brian and I stayed at his house and like that was yeah.

It is amazing how many paths lead through Stop It Goaltending. It was It really is incredible.

I'm dating myself. It wasn't even Stop It Goaltending at the time. It was he had a different he was in New Hampshire and it was a I forget the name of it now. Deck's gonna kill me. Forget what it was.

Yeah. The predecessor to stop it. But that's when he he started unlocking a technical base for me. And I loved it. And then I remember like Jeff Blaschow was my college coach.

He came out to watch Brian work with me. And then together we sort of like we it's interesting them talking about a partnership.

And Blash was a head coach not a like he has a goaltending background.

Right. Yeah. Know Blash'll

But he wasn't a goalie coach.

He was a volunteer assistant to my freshman year at Ferris. So Blash graduated and then became the volunteer assistant. And I was the incoming freshman, so in a way I like replaced him at Ferris. So he had a team full of guys that he played with. I saw him.

And he had backed up my goalie partner. So I was like the only guy in the team that Blash could could coach, you know? So you know, like So he dug in. So he dug in. He was great.

And he used to wheel out the old school big VCR and plug it in with an extension cord at center ice. And we'd go through it and like but I would say like we him and I grew together as because he was he was learning the coach and I was really just diving into the technical stuff and it was built on some of the stuff that we'd worked with with Brian. But just that process, I knew then that's again how I got into being in part of USA was because partly because of how the relationship evolved with Blash and then like, okay, this is this is cool. Because I know how much I relied on him and how much he helped my college career and, you know, he went on and I I used to joke, I'm like, you're you're a bad goalie coach, you had to become a head coach, you know? But, you know, he was

Always nice when a head coach understands the position too. Right? You don't get enough of that. The game's become quite international. I won't ask you specifically, but you guys have you know, I mean, we've seen this trend.

Right? Both at the American League and the NHL with Esa Tikkanen adding coaches from overseas. How important it is? And you've done it at USA Hockey too just to make sure we're always listening to other ideas and not necessarily just ones in our backyard.

I I'm a huge believer in it, and I think that that's part of the culture with USA Hockey's leadership is trying to learn from everything, whether it's other sports, other countries, to try to continue to move forward. Part of the job is, of course, going to see who's going, who's playing well in other countries and for the opportunity to go to Russia in 2019 and see some of the things there. We spent a lot of time in Finland and Sweden and all the hockey playing countries. And we hired a goalie coach for Grand Rapids this past year from Roope Koiskinen, and he's from KarPat. And part of the reason is when you start looking at Finnish goalies in the NHL, there's a lot of them that went through KarPat.

And they're all very technically sound. And we sort of worked backwards to say, well, how is this happening? Rope has done an incredible job. You know he's thoughtful in everything in his process and all these things. I've learned a ton from him and he's an example of somebody who's passionate about the coaching.

He he played but he didn't play at a high level and I'm not I don't want to speak out of turn. I don't know if he played past junior. I don't think he did but he's been coaching since he was 16 because he loved it. That's and that comes through. And he he did a good Makes

him a fit.

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

So the passion that you guys all have for the position as well. And Alex Westlund, who we we we've I've had a chance to meet and just huge fan of his work as well. So that's I I just it's just so nice to see. I mean, I used to write the articles. Like, what you know, we we we're seeing coaches from other countries. When are we gonna see?

We see countries have other a success. When are we gonna see goalie coaches come over? So it's nice to see that trend continue at all levels, and I see the Red Wings being a part of that. Phil, I can't thank you much. As usual, I've taken up more time than I said I would.

Enjoyed it. I think there's probably another million things we could touch on, but every everybody has somewhere else they have to be soon at this event. It's been tough. Thank you so much for making time for us at InGoal Magazine.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks a lot for having me. Thanks for everything you guys do. Like I said, I love the podcast and keep up the great work.

Outro

There's a guy. I know his name, but I've never heard him speak and never dove into Phil's background and and his philosophies. That that was really neat.

That's fascinating. And there's a lot of great lessons in there. And so thank you very much to the Detroit Red Wings for allowing listen, when you get guys in positions like that, it's not always automatic that they're allowed to talk, you know, to the media. It's a problem I run into in my job. Goalie coach is not allowed to talk.

So we ran this through the proper channels, they're very gracious to let Phil share some of that knowledge with us. And I think there's some really important lessons and value in people hearing that. So we really do appreciate them, opening that door for us and Phil for his time.

The USA Goaltending Symposium is the gift that's going to continue giving.

Oh, wow. Yeah. We've got so much great stuff coming here, on the InGoal Radio Podcast and over at ingoalmag.com. Whether it's directly the interviews like the one you just heard that we recorded at the USA Hockey National Goaltending Symposium with Phil Osear. We've got Dave Rogalski and Brian Eklund, the New Jersey Devils, NHL, and American Hockey League goaltending coaches and goalie development coaches.

We've got Alex Cavallini from the US national team, but then also relationships and numbers passed along for future interviews, some of which have happened. Josh Tucker from True Focus Vision, we caught up with him in person and really got deep into what he does. That's coming. Charlie Lindgren, he'll be up soon. We caught up with Charlie Lindgren, who's, of course, from Minnesota.

And then we also caught up with Alex Lyon speaking of the Detroit Red Wings, who's also from Minnesota. Fantastic interviews, and they both stuck around to do ProReads. So we've got fresh ProReads material coming at ingoalmag.com. As a matter of fact, Charlie Lindgren was so good that we've already got one up on the website already. It was like a bonus ProReads this week from us here at InGoal just to celebrate.

My hardest part right now, Daren. And, also, it's not finalized. It's in the queue. Got a number. Mike Richter from The USA.

He was there for for a night with the USA Hockey National Goaltending Symposium. Didn't have a chance to record there, but we've set something up. There's just a ton of great stuff, and it won't just be exclusive to the InGoal Radio Podcast. I'm so my hardest problem now is not being able to share it all with the like, right now. I gotta wait now till we bring it to you, but make sure you stay tuned to the InGoal Radio Podcast and make sure you keep checking out ingoalmag.com.

There is a ton of stuff coming on both formats. Thanks to the time we spent in Minnesota, and thanks again to Steve Thompson and USA Hockey for extending that invitation to us.

You got Ricky's number? That's cool. Mike Richter? That's wild.

I did. I did. I pretty pretty cool because, obviously, like, there are few very few like, I've been now doing this twenty five years and the job is to just walk into an NHL locker room and talk to guys. And my character is a guy who's more from before I got that job. So there are a few where, you know, you meet them and you're you're still a little giddy and intimidated.

You know what I mean? And Mike Richter was one of those.

Yeah. Little fanboy. That's perfect

That's one of those numbers that I make sure I put in the phone and and label it just to have it even if I only ever use it once. But for the next time I'm scrolling through the phone, I'm like, oh, I got Richter's Richter's number.

I made sure I I copied it into notes. I copied it into contacts. Like, it's it's it's everywhere. It they're very few. And that was and so knowing he wouldn't have time because his time was full while he was there to to have a conversation with us on-site, I thought, you know, I thought, man, this is gonna be really tough because that guy is busy.

He's got a ton going on. So gracious. As soon as he knew what it was for and thank you to Ryan Miller because Ryan Miller was on hand with Mike Richter and sort of gave he introduced me to him and established what we do. And I think that the fact that we are all about goaltending made him, you know, open and to to share both the number and, you know, pledge to share his time. So so excited.

The only one I can kinda compare to that, there's a few, probably Tretiak. Meeting Tretiak at the twenty ten Olympics and getting to have a conversation with him through an interpreter. Like, those are the moments still where you're like, oh, yeah. This isn't just a job. This is pretty damn cool what we do.

Saw Tretiak at the 2010 Olympics at a restaurant, he was walking out and I still kick myself to this day for not going up and getting a picture with him. Like, just to this day.

I was working with Associated Press Yeah. And so there are definitely some hard and fast rules. I I had to be careful about the fanboy. I couldn't I definitely could not be asking for pictures, so I don't have any. But just to get to meet him and then have a conversation about goaltending, again, with with with the help of an interpreter was, I mean, just incredible stuff.

And I've I've actually had a chance since first story at nhl.com to do it again in the past ten years. So, yeah, it's it's kind it's it's kinda neat.

Richter setup, by the way, all, like, multiple different brands, but the setup was always so good. And he held his glove in a really cool fashion.

Yeah. And some great stories that he shared at the symposium that I can't wait to dig into for our audience as well about everything from equipment to how he grew up to sort of the style of the day and how different it was from what we see now and yet how much compete and how much he worked at it.

Wasn't a tall guy either.

Nope. Nope. He but just like today's goalies, there were a lot of similarities. Him and Ryan Miller up there talking about the things that they did and the reasons they had success. And so, again, different era, different style, but there are gonna be lessons from Mike Richter that are going to resonate with every young goalie, goalie coach, and goalie parent trying to follow in his footsteps, whether you're American or Canadian or Swedish or Finnish or Russian or whatever part of the world you're from.

The lessons kinda stay the same across generations about what it takes to be good at this position.

The contact box, content box at InGoal Radio, the podcast is overflowing right now and can't wait to bring you all of the the various elements from the USA Hockey Goaltending Symposium as well as the natural interactions that cross our path over the course of this summer. So really cool stuff. Enjoy the Stanley Cup final, Hutch.

I'm excited. It starts the night. Hope you guys all enjoy it too.

Bob against Stu. Bob against Stu.

It's hard to root root against anybody, isn't

it? Yeah. Well

Let let's hope nothing nothing every game.

See, that's what I always say. Right? We don't cheer for teams. We cheer for good stories and great people. And so I feel like I'm kinda covered either way on this one.

I hate to say it because Stu, Dustin Wolf, longtime supporters of us here at InGoal, and then on the flip side, Robbie Tallas, who we've been on the ice with. Bob's been gracious. As much as he's a little more secretive about his game or doesn't talk about it as much as he used to. And then we talk about Bob and Stu and the the the three letter names. How about one with two?

Our good friend, Lou.

Yeah. Good point. Robbie Tallas is awesome, dude. And Calvin Pickard, they guy does he get into a Stanley Cup final game? Never played a playoff game before this year.

Does he get into a Stanley Cup final game? That would be a cool story as well. We'll watch it with great interest, and we'll check back with you some more cool content sneaking up on Tendy Fest. Thanks for listening to InGoal Radio Podcast presented by The Hockey Shop Source for Sports Langley, thehockeyshop.com. Chat with you next week.